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11340. judithathome - 12/22/2013 10:09:19 PM Okay, all this talk about Snowden's motives, etc. can stop now...he has offered to "trade" info to Brazil for "something".
In other words, he is bored with Russia and the beaches of Ipanema are looking a lot more inviting than the frozen pipes in his one room walkup in Moscow.
Some Call This Treason; HE Calls It "Help" 11341. alistairconnor - 12/23/2013 4:29:53 PM Judith, as I recall, you have spent a large part of your life on US military bases, with 24/7 surveillance and security.
The rest of us -- and especially non-Americans -- never made that choice. But we got the 24/7 surveillance anyway. 11342. judithathome - 12/23/2013 7:26:17 PM People in England have had cameras on them for decades...you act as though the US started this whole thing...
And for the record: I spent barely 10 years of the 30+ years I have been married to Keoni "in the military" and only lived one of those years on a military base. The rest I lived "off base", like the rest of the population in the countries where he served.
And trust me, I felt much safer in Japan and Germany (living off base) than I ever did...or DO...in the USA.
11343. alistairconnor - 12/24/2013 2:01:09 AM OK sorry for bringing up your private life, I was just trying to find a rationalization for why you're OK with the US spying on the entire world, its own citizens included... just a question of temperament I suppose.
Personally I think that if the USA survives as a democratic nation, Snowden will be revered as one of its saviours.
But you seem to have understood something about his motives that I have missed. Would you care to explain to me? 11344. Wombat - 12/24/2013 4:23:34 AM Snowden's first revelations on the level of surveillance that appears to be taking place in the US were shocking to some, and set off a needed discussion on whether the security of the United States needs this level of collection and intrusive data analysis.
His latest revelations are beginning to get into what are called "sources and methods" in intelspeak, in addition to blowing programs that are very much in the US (and its allies') interests.
It also seems that he planned his most recent job changes to try and get increased access to this information, as opposed to "stumbling onto" this "shocking" information. At best, he is trying to emulate Assange, at worst he is selling information to countries whose interests are not always the same as ours, and who have human rights and intrusive government policies that are considerably worse than ours. 11345. judithathome - 12/24/2013 5:46:20 AM I'll just say I find it humorous that people in this country are so up in arms over being "spied upon" when 9/10ths of them are posting things about themselves almost every minute of the day and seem to have no problems whatsoever with revealing their innermost thoughts and feelings AND their actions almost 24/7 but seem soooo upset that the government might be tracking what phone numbers they call. 11346. robertjayb - 12/24/2013 7:02:07 AM Snowden speaks:
WASHINGTON (AP) — National Security Agency leaker Edward Snowden said his "mission's already accomplished" after leaking NSA secrets that have caused a reassessment of U.S. surveillance policies
Snowden told The Washington Post in an interview published online Monday night that he was satisfied because journalists have been able to tell the story of the government's collection of bulk Internet and phone records, an activity that has grown dramatically in the decade since the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks.
"For me, in terms of personal satisfaction, the mission's already accomplished," he said. "I already won."
(via houston chronicle)
Snowden's "mission accomplished" is a hell of a lot more valid than Shrub Bush's. 11347. robertjayb - 12/24/2013 7:24:25 AM http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2013/12/22/212456/a-spy-world-reshaped-by-edward.html 11348. Wombat - 12/24/2013 4:40:55 PM No disagreement there. Whether or not it leaves the country better off is still open to question. 11349. Wombat - 12/24/2013 4:54:04 PM No disagreement there. Whether or not it leaves the country better off is still open to question. 11350. alistairconnor - 12/24/2013 5:51:43 PM Wombat : Just a correction : programs that are very much in the US (and and/or its allies') interests.
There is a hell of a lot of stuff about how the US systematically spies on its (alleged) allies. I can understand how Americans may feel that revealing this stuff makes America worse off -- and it's probably even true in the short term (IT export numbers?) -- but I don't think it's a healthy way to behave, in the long term.
As for blown programs which were in its allies interest, I'd like examples (since it's in the public domain anyway). 11351. alistairconnor - 12/24/2013 5:54:09 PM Another point : Snowden is no longer in possession of the raw info. He handed it off to Poitras and Greenwald before he went to Russia. How much control he has over the selection and release of information is open to question : as far as I can see, Poitras and Greenwald are driving that, and doing a good job of what they choose to reveal, in my opinion. But I'm open to other points of view. 11352. arkymalarky - 12/24/2013 7:20:45 PM Fwiw IMHO:
The US created this monster by trying to scoop up tech wizzes without holding them to the same standards as other employees, IMO partly to try to keep up andbpartly to keep them from going elsewhere. Snowden had no business with that kind of access in the first place.
Privacy is important in the database everything age. So is security of info. I don't know that those two things are possible.
To me, too much emphasis is on Snowden and not enough on the NSA. It could have been much worse and it is time for a thorough revamp of the NSA code of operation and reassessment of its purpose and scope.
Just because people can put what they want out there doesn't mean any govt has the right to scoop it all and just because they or any other govt can scoop it up and crunch it in a multitude of ways doesn't mean it should; but it does mean it will. It's the nature of the beast. We live in a different age and, as always, our ethical understanding of how to use our tech is far behind the tech itself.
11353. judithathome - 12/24/2013 7:39:31 PM I guess being the only country in the world spying on their allies does put us in a awkward position.S
(That "S", by the way, stands for sarcasm.) 11354. judithathome - 12/24/2013 7:41:14 PM Another point: Snowden is no longer in possession of the raw info. He handed it off to Poitras and Greenwald before he went to Russia.
Well...that is true if you believe him. His track-record for "honesty" isn't exactly stellar. 11355. robertjayb - 12/24/2013 9:00:03 PM The US created this monster by trying to scoop up tech wizzes...
Snowden had no business with that kind of access in the first place...not sure I agree, he seems a smart guy doing a pretty good job, so far, of evading the suits that want to lock him up forever and always...But that is certainly true on Bradley (or whatever) Manning. That poor dweeb was way, way out of place and the people who put him there should be locked up alongside him...well, maybe not alongside.
The fact that Cheney, Rumsfeld, Bush, Wolfowitz, et al, are walking around free taking bows chaps my behind. These "patriots" did far more damage to the country, my country, than Snowden, Manning, and Assange could ever have managed even if they intended harm. 11356. robertjayb - 12/24/2013 9:04:09 PM His track-record for "honesty" isn't exactly stellar.
Is that a "some-say" item or do you have examples? 11357. arkymalarky - 12/24/2013 9:20:49 PM Robert, he was a dropout without the scrutiny, background or training. He was a whiz kid contract worker. That's great, but not reason enough to give him so much access. Our system of gvt contracting is out of control and set to biteusin a HUGE way. 11358. arkymalarky - 12/24/2013 9:21:50 PM I agree with you otherwise. 11359. arkymalarky - 12/24/2013 9:28:44 PM I want to write a book about the corporatization/privatization of the US gvt since 1980, which I had originally centered on public education, though it's much deeper and broader than that, of course; but I'm too busy and lazy. One of you needs to do it.
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