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11665. iiibbb - 1/26/2016 9:42:08 PM

Things in the news that are driving me nuts right now.

The Oregon standoff. I suspect the FBI has this thing in hand, but the ignorance and idiocy about land management in the US is just awful. And the press doesn't help because I really think their ranks may be among the stupidest professionals in the US.

Trump's success. I cannot figure his success out... at all... he is totally vacuous... and an asshole to boot. Why isn't the press showing how his proposals are EMPTY. How his words are EMPTY. It's just fucking nuts. Are we really this stupid?

Democrat infighting and millennial apathy. Even though I'll be voting for them for the foreseeable future, I'll never be a Democrat.

Social Justice Warriors... I am totally on board with equality, but they approach and vision make me hate the idea of it... it's just so Animal Farm. To bring it back to the Oregon standoff... The fact that the powers that be have not come swooping in as they have for Black Lives Matter has nothing to do with "white privilege". It is not my privilege to have law enforcement act in a racist manner--- racist police are as bad for me as they are for Blacks. It's not that they should swoop in on Oregon, it's that they should leave #BLM protests the fuck alone. Privilege is having economic or educational benefits because the mechanisms for advancement are tailored for me. Privilege is about fairness, not justice. But whether you agree with me about that point or not... social justice warriors wouldn't be happy until I was totally silenced in a discussion about it because a) it goes against their narrative, and b) I'm a waspm so I should just shut the fuck up.

11666. Trillium - 1/27/2016 6:25:18 AM

Who benefits? Some news items that were known in 2012 seem to have disappeared down the journalism memory hole.
Malheur County targeted for gold, uranium mines

How land gets taken away from the Hammonds and given to more powerful people

11667. Trillium - 1/27/2016 6:53:30 AM

NOT "news or current events", but still instructive about how to get things done if you have the clout, and the general public is apathetic:

How General Wilder came to own a coal mine in rural Tennessee's Fentress County ... bought for cheap after Confederate currency was absolutely worthless... using "convict labor" to haul out the valuable resources

Brief history of Wilder Coal Mine

When "convict labor" (form of slave labor) was outlawed in the 1890s, there were still expendable rednecks to be used up. Of course the rednecks revolted; but the government could be counted on to step in and put them in their place. The people who own most of West Virginia and Eastern Kentucky don't LIVE there. They just live off the land, so to speak

Breaking the Wilder coal strike in 1932

11668. iiibbb - 1/27/2016 6:27:35 PM

The Hammonds set fires that put people in danger and threatened to wrap someone's kid in barbed wire and drown them.

They did go peacefully... So there's that.

11669. Trillium - 1/28/2016 3:25:43 AM

People are put in danger on a regular basis. Seldom does anyone go to jail for the BIG disasters, let alone the little ones. Some reports claim that the fires near the Hammond homestead were started by lightning, and a backburn without a permit was necessary to save their home. There are weirdnesses in the reporting of that case, including a young family member reported to have mental problems. That's not enough to jail his grandparents if they are falsely accused. Can you link to the barbed wire story, and who is saying that?

11670. Trillium - 1/28/2016 3:29:10 AM

I don't want for anyone to go to jail for the Kingston coal ash spill, let alone go to jail TWICE for that massive failure of a mismanaged government agency. The Malheur gold and uranium resources provide incentive for people to lie for monetary gain. I'm not as trusting of the official story as you are. If you google farther you'll find conflicting reports

Kingston Coal Ash spill

"Shortly before 1 a.m. on Dec. 22, 2008, a dike holding back an 84-acre pond of wet coal ash at the Tennessee Valley Authority's Kingston plant near Harriman, Tenn. ruptured and collapsed following weeks of heavy rains. A billion gallons of muddy, gray coal ash loaded with arsenic, lead and other contaminants poured across the nearby Emory River to the neighborhood along Swan Pond Road.

"The toxic tidal wave hit suddenly, taking sleeping residents by surprise. It damaged a total of 42 homes, pushing one house completely off its foundation and rendering three others uninhabitable. It tore down trees, pushed boats off docks, washed out a road and a railway, ruptured a major gas line, broke a water main, and ripped down power lines. No people died in the disaster, though a dog that had been tied up in the yard of one house was buried by the coal ash and couldn't be rescued in time."


It's something of a miracle that the casualty rate was so low in the ash spill (one canine, who was probably considered a member of someone's family). I haven't seen any close investigations into how the situation could have been prevented, but it's a good guess that negligence was involved someplace.

What is NOT clear to me is that the Hammonds were negligent when they did an emergency backburn without a permit to save their house (according to some reports). Again, read, research and verify. Someone may be very well be lying to cover their tail and for financial gain in eventual uranium and gold interests after the Hammonds are forced to sell. Trust if you must, but I'd verify -- this situation stinks of propaganda

11671. iiibbb - 1/28/2016 2:25:07 PM

Land ownership in the west is a byproduct of the railroads and the Dust Bowl.

Land management in the west is a byproduct of wildlife management, the Dust Bowl, a century of science, and the environmental movement.

Ranchers would have you believe that it's the Government's mismanagement. But in actuality it's the mismanagement that led to the Dust Bowl and a legacy of management decisions to keep us away from large-scale environmental catastrophes that we are avoiding.

Additionally, it is the conglomeration and monopolization of the beef and other ag industries that render small ranching obsolete. Allowing small ranchers to survive at the cost of the environment and other multiple uses of the land isn't the right deal. And certainly not at the point of a gun.

11672. Trillium - 1/28/2016 4:12:17 PM

"Railroads" did not appear out of thin air. Cornelius Vanderbilt and others like him hired and collaborated with politicians (along with Chinese laborers, prison laborers, and native workers etc.) to bring the U.S. railroad system into being. The railroad magnates WERE the government and they were not opposed to using guns to get their way, just like other powerful people, now, who get to declare ranching "obsolete" and force ranchers off "their" land. (Who has dominant rights? who gets to decide? at gunpoint?)
Vanderbilt
Cornelius Vanderbilt was ruthless, but his descendants helped to bring the environmental movement into being, for example by bringing the concept of forest management to Biltmore Estate and to other powerful people who visited there. The original Appalachian forests had been devastated.
Biltmore
The link above doesn't name the European forestry experts who came to advise the Vanderbilts and set trends elsewhere in the country, but if you visit Asheville the docents tell more of the whole story at Biltmore. This link has some info
Olmsted, Pinchot, Schenk -- "Cradle of Forestry"

11673. Trillium - 1/28/2016 4:57:02 PM

This was written by someone who lives near the Malheur refuge: News with Views
"The media does not take the time to find out the facts. Instead, they report the words of people like Montel Williams “put this down ... shoot to kill”....

"Terry Lynn Barton, a forest service employee, pleaded guilty to arson charges stemming from the 2002 Hayman Fire which was the worst wildfire in Colorado's recorded history, blackened 138,000 acres, destroyed 133 homes and forced more than 8,000 people to evacuate. But she only did six-year term in prison. The Hammonds are going to have to do 10 years, pay $400,000 dollars and the government has demanded the right to buy their ranch if they go bankrupt or have to sell. The BLM simply stipulated a 400,00 dollar fine despite the fact that a conservation agent and a Fire Specialist, Roy Hogue, had both testified there was no damage from the fire but that the “land productivity had improved; no fire suppression or rehabilitation costs existed.” Read more:[10]

"So why this huge fine?

"Why the drive for such an abusive sentence?

"To force the Hammonds to sell their home, business and land to the government. Hundreds of ranchers have already lost their homes, land and livelihood. Hundreds more all over the west not only see the danger coming but are openly threatened. Americans need to take the time to find out the whole truth."

11674. iiibbb - 1/28/2016 5:48:31 PM

It does sound like Barton got off easy, more than the Hammonds got it hard.

The BLM isn't the courts or even the prosecutors. Two 5 year sentences for two arsonists isn't 10 years.

The Hammonds had a history of arson.

The Hammonds had a history of poaching.

The Hammonds had a history of violating grazing permit terms.

The Hammonds had a history of intimidating officials.

There are many ranchers there---- most have publicly said they're fine with the terms of their leases and that the Government does as good a job as could be expected to meet the needs of all local stakeholders.

On top of this.... why did they occupy land managed by the Fish and Wildlife Service?

I don't know what else to say.

It's public land. The feds might not be good at managing it, but they're better than 1000 people managing it differently.

The second that land goes private it would be posted "No Trespassing".

11675. iiibbb - 1/28/2016 5:52:09 PM

These seditionists aren't the martyrs you're looking for.

here are some real Victims worthy of the title of martyr.

The militia guys are garbage.

11676. Trillium - 1/28/2016 9:53:30 PM

One person has already been killed. I don't look at anyone as human garbage, especially as a way of emphasizing a personal disagreement. I am repelled by the expression, iiibbb.

The Hammonds and the militia are separate entities, and in your post you conflate the two. The Hammonds distanced themselves from the militia takeover, immediately.

The following link provides details of the Hammond conflict involving water drainage (drives away birds), juniper overgrowth (sucks up ground water) and carp overgrowth in ponds (diminishes other fish populations). The following site is also anti-Israeli, based on what I read, which repels me -- but the details and links they provide about Malheur are nonetheless relevant:
"What the Oregon Standoff is really about"

The Hammonds are accused of threatening others, poaching and setting fires without permits -- however, there are large amounts of money and political pull at stake, and someone/entity in the background covets the Hammond land deeds. So, no, I do not immediately buy the accusations. Not because the Hammonds appear as "martyrs", but because I wasn't born yesterday, and I'm aware that money and politics can influence events on behalf of the monied and the powerful.

Your correction about the jail terms is accurate; the two men were sentenced to five years each, and had already served over one year. The question is whether a vendetta and smear campaign is being waged to remove inconvenient citizens from land that they have legally owned and managed for decades, for the profit of a more powerful agenda.

11677. iiibbb - 1/28/2016 10:04:48 PM

I refer to them as garbage because they are online telling people to converge on the site and kill officers.

I watched "defendyourbase" channel all day yesterday. All kinds of talk about killing feds.

I'll admit I take this standoff personally as someone who studies and practices scientific land management and conservation.... The right wing assault on science is an afront and I'm sick of it.

LeVoy had a death wish. He spoke of death before arrest frequently before he was shot. What's interesting is that all of the "leaders" are safe in jail while this chump took a bullet for them. Clever game to wind up the rabble so they're willing to take a bullet for you.

11678. iiibbb - 1/28/2016 10:06:52 PM

They're terrorists... as much as they try to compare themselves to black lives matter...

Shit... none of them cared about #BLM until a white guy gets shot.

And I still watched some of them on defendyourbasis' feed talking about Obama being a Muslim and devising this whole thing.

It is to laugh.

11679. Trillium - 1/28/2016 11:28:22 PM

For purposes of this discussion, it is going to confuse readers if "BLM" is used to refer to "Black Lives Matter" instead of "Bureau of Land Management" which is the relevant organization in this conflict. Which are you talking about, iiibbb?

11680. Trillium - 1/28/2016 11:28:59 PM

I tried to watch the "defend your base" video from the UK Daily Mail link that you provided, but it froze my computer. I will try again later -- but once again, the Hammonds and their coveted land deed are a separate conflict from the militia takeover (which for all I know is packed with agents provocateurs, that's happened elsewhere).

The Oregon conflict has activated all sorts of unbalanced characters -- including, by the way, the prosecutor of the Hammands, Amanda Marshall, who had to step down from office because her mental stability is questionable.

"Fatal Attraction Fallout"--Willamette Week March 17, 2015

"Wyden instead tapped Marshall, largely an unknown in Oregon legal circles. She had been an assistant district attorney in Coos County for five years and worked at the Oregon Department of Justice for a decade, specializing in parental rights termination...She gained attention with a Facebook page expressing interest in becoming U.S. attorney, a novel approach to seeking a federal appointment... Wyden was under political pressure at the time from the Oregon Women Lawyers, who'd blasted the earlier selection processes...

"Then, in October 2014, allegations of influence peddling and conflict of interest arose around Kitzhaber and Hayes.

"Soon, the FBI was investigating. That gave Marshall's office a head start on the Oregon Department of Justice, which reluctantly started its own criminal investigation of Kitzhaber and Hayes in early February....Having the feds take charge made sense: They have more resources, more experience making big political corruption cases, and more distance from Oregon's Democratic Party machine.

"Marshall's moment in the sun was soon eclipsed by allegations about her own behavior."
(Short summary, Marshall was apparently stalking a subordinate who was under 24/7 protection while working a drug cartel prosecution)

11681. Trillium - 1/28/2016 11:41:09 PM

Additionally, through her earlier Child Protection work, Marshall may have had access to influence over the Hammond grandson who was used to testify against them.

Would uranium and gold mines be worth the trouble?

11682. iiibbb - 1/29/2016 1:26:54 AM

try this youtube link

11683. iiibbb - 1/29/2016 1:27:38 AM

That's just a sample... he was talking shit like that all day long.

11684. iiibbb - 1/29/2016 2:04:18 AM

Here is the rediculousness in its entirety. although there are many others that he posted.

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