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10317. judithathome - 6/2/2012 6:52:09 PM
???? 10318. vonKreedon - 6/2/2012 7:22:53 PM Judith - The Atlantic reports that the autopsy of Martin showed, "...broken skin on his knuckles, suggesting that he was involved in a fight before being shot and killed by George Zimmerman. According to the TV station, that and the single gun shot wound were the only injuries on his body."
And further reports, "In addition, ABC News has received a different medical report on Zimmerman that says he had a broken nose, two black eyes, and a cuts on the back of his head the day after the shooting. That report came from a family practice physician that Zimmerman sought treatment from the morning after the incident.
Combined together the new medical evidence does seem to confirm the story that Martin and Zimmerman were involved in some kind of altercation before Martin was shot, but there's still no way to know how it may have started."
This combined with the info in this IMO compelling timeline of the shooting leads me to believe that Martin likely initiated the confrontation and the ensueing fight.
I am not saying that Zimmerman is innocent of wrong doing. I am not saying that Zimmerman should not be investigated and charged, quite the opposite. I am only saying that I oppose the rush to judgement I've seen from many and the accompanying reflexive partisan divide that so quickly permeated this tragedy. 10319. judithathome - 6/2/2012 7:33:18 PM Someone who would lie under oath about being destitute could lie about injuries...maybe he had a friend sock him in the face.
I just don't believe the guy...the police at the scene sent one of two ambulences called to the scene away after looking at Zimmerman...he was filmed less that 45 minutes later at the police garage while being taken into custody. He didn't looked THAT roughed up to me...granted, black eyes would have taken longer to develop but a broken nose? Are you kidding me? And a broken nose gushes blood...no blood at all on his clothes...
He could have been released by the cops, gone home, had his wife beat the crap out of him, and gone to his family doctor that morning to set the alibi that he beaten. She couldn't testify against him, after all.
I know there is a lot of supposition in what I'm saying but no more than in Zimmerman's story.
If Martin had been breaking into Zimmerman's house, I would have no problem with what happened...but he wasn't. He was free to walk the sidewalks of that apartment complex...he was there as a guest of his father. 10320. judithathome - 6/2/2012 7:34:36 PM that he was beaten... 10321. vonKreedon - 6/2/2012 7:42:37 PM Well, there are obvious wounds to the back of Zimmerman's head in the police station video when he was taken out of the police car. And according to the police report, "While I was in such close contact with Zimmerman, I could observe that his back appeared to be wet and was covered in grass, as if he had been laying on his back on the ground. Zimmerman was also bleeding from the nose and back of his head." 10322. vonKreedon - 6/2/2012 7:43:43 PM Again, I am not exonerating Zimmerman, I'm only saying that this is actually much doubt about what happened and who was the attacker in the confrontation. 10323. vonKreedon - 6/2/2012 7:44:04 PM this is = there is 10324. vonKreedon - 6/2/2012 8:07:36 PM A good part of what makes me care about this is the blatant bias against Zimmerman shown in the images used to portray Zimmerman and Martin.
Here's the most common images used for the two:
But instead they put a middle school/Freshman photo up against a seven year old mug shot. Not good journalism.
But those are both old, the one of Zimmerman is a 2005 booking photo. Compare that with a more recent photo that was not initially used:
The picture of Martin is also old. They could have used a more recent photo such as:
or
10325. vonKreedon - 6/2/2012 8:08:51 PM Damn no edit. Please mentally move the line, "But instead they put a middle school/Freshman photo up against a seven year old mug shot. Not good journalism." to the end of the post. Thank you. 10326. judithathome - 6/2/2012 8:16:11 PM Well, "they", being the journalists and TV people, possibly had no access to other photos of Zimmerman and Martin...the mug shot of Zimmerman was avaiable. As probably were the school shots of Martin.
They corrected themselves when other pictures became avaiable.
10327. vonKreedon - 6/2/2012 8:23:46 PM Slowly, very slowly. 10328. arkymalarky - 6/2/2012 8:47:07 PM Martin would have been justified killing Zimmerman. The fact that he got a few good licks in before being murdered by someone stalking him is not relevant to whether the aggressor is guilty. 10329. arkymalarky - 6/2/2012 8:50:30 PM It infuriates me that it is being argued as okay that someone walking down the street can be murdered and bears guilt for fighting back. What kind of precedent would that set? 10330. vonKreedon - 6/2/2012 8:51:22 PM Whoa!!! Arky, seriously consider what you just said. You appear to be saying that if I think you are stalking me, as in following me around a neighborhood in which I do not live, I'm within my rights to beat you to death. 10331. vonKreedon - 6/2/2012 8:52:46 PM And Arky, I have tried to be very clear that I am not exonerating Zimmerman for the shooting of Martin, only that there is and has been a rush to judgement when the facts of the case are not at all clear as to how was the attacked and who was acting in self-defense. 10332. arkymalarky - 6/2/2012 9:12:48 PM You're ignoring Zimmerman's 911 call imo 10333. vonKreedon - 6/2/2012 9:30:48 PM How so?
Again, I'm not saying that Zimmerman is innocent or that he should not have been arrested and investigated and charged. I'm also not saying that his recent bail revocation was unfair. I'm only saying that the case is far murkier than the partisanship that has permeated it would have us believe. 10334. arkymalarky - 6/2/2012 10:18:29 PM I disagree. The audio clearly shows he was told not to follow Martin and he did. He has a history of trouble with the law and now of lying. He needs to be tried for at least negligent homicide. He's getting due process, which is all anyone asked for. Is there an indication from what is known that his use of a gun to kill a teenager was proper? Nothing you've posted or that I've read outweighs his aggression from start to finish or removes him from responsibility IMO. Had he ignored that kid, as you're supposed to do when people are walking down the street, the kid would have gone in his dad's house and Zimmerman's life wouldn't be ruined. He was hotdogging playing cop with a gun and nothing Martin was doing justified him ever following him in the first place. 10335. arkymalarky - 6/2/2012 10:21:29 PM And I've taught teens 31 years. The fact that he could be killed just for doing what teens do all the time is disconcerting to say the least. He looks just like lots of kids who've sat in my classes over the years. 10336. vonKreedon - 6/2/2012 11:02:15 PM Arky - As I've said, I believe that Zimmerman should be tried for manslaughter or more, though the Murder 2 charge he's facing seems a bit of a stretch to me. At any rate, my point is not that he's innocent, it's that the case is murky and that if a jury finds him innocent I won't be outraged.
Here's my understanding of the case based on the info in the links I've provided earlier:
- About 7:10PM Zimmerman calls 911 about a suspicious guy, who on prompt by the dispatcher he identifies as likely black. The neighborhood had a recent history of young blacks burglarizing homes and Zimmerman was a neighborhood watch captain. Zimmerman notes that Martin has noticed him and is approaching him with his hand under his hoodie, perhaps in his waistband. The dispatcher says units are on the way, but Zimmerman has been in this position before in which the burglars have gotten away because the police arrive too late.
- Zimmerman says that the suspect has run away and Z. follows him. The dispatcher says, once, not to follow, but Z continues to follow.
- While Z. is talking with 911, M. takes a call from his girlfriend DeeDee. She tells him to run, but he declines, saying he'll walk fast. Given the timeframe for his movement reported by Z, this is likely when Z. says he's running and loses sight of him, leaves his truck and tries to follow.
- DD hears M. confront Z. and a scuffle breaks off the call. The rush to judgement assumed that Z. had caught M. and initiated the scuffle, but it's at least as likely that M. had gone back to confront Z. rather than just going to his father's girlfriend's apartment. It seems likely to me from this map that they surprised each other, each thinking that the other was behaving agressively and that M. initiated the physical violence.
- Eyewitnesses are mixed wrt to how is on top of who when the shot is fired, but given the physical evidence on both Z. and M. it appears the M. was on top and beating Z.
Again, I'm not absolving Z., I'm just saying that the case if murkier that it was first presented.
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