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1049. IrvingSnodgrass - 2/25/2000 1:30:50 AM It's true that my version does not differ substantively from the earlier version, which stated the same information. All I did was take out some of the redundancy, and removed the invitations to try and break the rules ("don't push the envelope").
Contrary to what someone said earlier, I didn't make any penalties more specific. In fact, just the opposite. I tried to more clearly state that the moderator is the final judge on any rule violations.
The first draft of the rules were fine. I just tried to tighten them up. 1050. PincherMartin - 2/25/2000 1:35:19 AM Is it possible to show Irv's (and other's as well) version again?
I have finally read the RoE -- I think they are brief and clear, but I'm willing to compare them with any other drafts to see if it can still be bettered. 1051. Indiana Jones - 2/25/2000 1:52:56 AM PM: Here's Irv's version. 1052. PincherMartin - 2/25/2000 2:21:12 AM Thanks, Indiana.
I can accept Irv's version. 1053. Seguine - 2/25/2000 3:40:24 AM PsychProf. For the second time: you've not been the target of any insult of mine. I'm sure you're a very accomplished guy. 1054. PsychProf - 2/25/2000 4:39:26 AM I give up. 1055. arkymalarky - 2/25/2000 7:09:27 AM FWIW, PP, I agree with you. 1056. AceofSpades - 2/25/2000 7:30:08 AM
I'm against the changes to the RoE.
I could support them, IF Irv & co. explained precisely what policy changes the changes in wording are supposed to effect.
If there is NO change, that's fine, then I guess I could support them. I wouldn't really see the point, but if everyone wants a change, that's fine. 1057. IrvingSnodgrass - 2/25/2000 10:39:32 PM Ace:
My proposed version doesn't change any policies. It is an attempt to simplify and clarify the wording of our existing policies, and remove what I perceived as invitations to break the rules. 1058. 109109 - 2/26/2000 4:38:16 AM I oppose Irv's version because it suggests democracy, and I prefer the version of the Mote as warring but blood-related fiefdoms under a toothless central authority. 1059. dusty - 2/26/2000 6:29:11 AM Message # 1041 JayAckroyd
It is interesting that amidst all this ruckus, only four people have made a direct comment on Irv's draft.
There's a reason that I haven't bothered. It seems a waste of time to talk about proposed new rules when we do not have a procedure for deciding how to approve them.
Most venues have a rule for deciding how to adopt rules. True democracies (thankfully, rare) put the matter up for a vote, and let the majority rule. we aren't a democracy, so the fact that we have no voting procedure probably doesn't matter.
Absolute dictators have rule. Whatever they say, goes. There's not much point of debate if that is our model.
Some committees operate on the basis of formal voting, other on the basis of consensus. In the latter, debate ensues until someone (normally the chair) asks if there is a consensus. Silence is considered assent, and, lacking dissent, the policy is changed. Please note that lack of dissent is not equivalent to 100% approval. (Examples upon request.) I read the history of the RoE, and did not find a single instance where this question was posed. So this isn't our model.
A benevolent dictator asks for input, and then makes a decision, giving due weight (possibly zero) to those opposed. I thought that this might be our model, but it appears not to be the case.
After reading this thread, I cannot determine the date, or the action that occurred that signified the acceptance of the RoE by the community.
Until someone explains what the procedure is for changing rules, discussing alternative rules is pointless.
In summary, we are using a voting rule, we aren't using a consensus rule, we aren't using a dictator(absolute or benevolent) rule, so what are we doing? 1060. dusty - 2/26/2000 6:42:05 AM Message # 856 IrvingSnodgrass
1) I was getting very tired of the discussion dwelling on how the original rules were formulated and I wanted to move things forward.
I'm sympathetic to this concern, despite my last post that comments on how the prior rules were formulated (or to be precise, my lack of understanding as to how they were formulated.)
It is only of secondary interest to learn how the prior rules were formulated. If the answer is as simple as, "they just happened", so be it. But I cannot justify spending time debating changes to rules, if we have no procedure for adopting a change.
I recited my view of the history, because there have been some strong statements implying that the procedure was well defined. If it was, I missed it. 1061. IrvingSnodgrass - 2/26/2000 9:22:02 AM Dusty:
Our system has been mentioned often enough. We don't "vote" because to do so would be unwieldy. There are relatively few people who even care about the policies around here. and I'm sure many, if not most, would feel receving an e-mail asking them to vote would feel it was an imposition.
That leaves two possibilities:
1) Decisions could be made by the Moderator or the admin "team," without consulting the membership.
2) The system we have now, in which everyone is invited to provide their input, if they are so inclined, and a general community feeling (a consensus) emerges. The Moderator then makes a decision based upon that consensus.
It is closest to this system, of those you mentioned:
A benevolent dictator asks for input, and then makes a decision, giving due weight (possibly zero) to those opposed. I thought that this might be our model, but it appears not to be the case.
The main difference is that anyone can bring up a topic and ask for input and discussion. The Moderator makes the final decision. 1062. bloodnfire - 2/26/2000 10:01:31 AM FWIW. I endorse Irv's proposed new ROE. 1063. bloodnfire - 2/26/2000 10:09:50 AM And it's good to see Seguine 'popping in' from time to time too. 1064. Angel-Five - 2/26/2000 11:41:00 AM I think the procedure for adopting changes has always been pretty clear: the Mote staff makes changes based upon their own judgment. Since their judgment is shaped by their perception of the overall needs and wants of the Mote as expressed in discussions like this, and everybody's pretty universal in their support of those judgments, I think this is a sustainable and desirable system. It's the best of both worlds. Yet it's not democratic at all, really. I'm not sure where 'South Carolina' Niner is deriving his notion that the execution of this forum is democratic. Votes don't decide what happens here in any direct sense. But if he really does want a toothless central leadership, I can't agree with that -- though it's irrelevant, because his argument is rooted in the concept that we have one now, and we don't. The central leadership in this forum is really the only body with any significant power at all. I don't mind thread hosts being more empowered under the aegis of the Moderator, but that's not a pressing concern. Niner, can you explain your statement a bit more, in case I misunderstood you? 1065. dusty - 2/26/2000 11:43:41 AM IrvingSnodgrass
Our system has been mentioned often enough.
With all due respect, I don't think it has.
We don't "vote" because to do so would be unwieldy.
Agreed.
There are relatively few people who even care about the policies around here. and I'm sure many, if not most, would feel receving an e-mail asking them to vote would feel it was an imposition.
Actually, the percentage of people weighing in with comments about policies exceeds the proportion who make such an effort in most other venues. Although the number who participated in the original drafting of the rules was far smaller than the group discussing changes.
I think we need to be a bit more formal when we make important decisions. As far as I can tell, the decision to implement the RoE occurred this way:
439. wabbit - 9/23/99 10:17:07 AM
I'm pretty happy with the revisions Cal has made to the RoE and I think we should get it posted asap. Any objections or suggestions should be made today.
There were subsequent objections, which were ignored.
I confess I'm still a little miffed that the decision to implement rules we all have to live by occurred in a thread that I did't know existed, and encompassed only six days of discussion. Only one day's notice from the time the revised rules were posted. Heaven help the person that might have taken a one-week vacation. 1066. dusty - 2/26/2000 11:46:38 AM Angel-Five
I think the procedure for adopting changes has always been pretty clear: the Mote staff makes changes based upon their own judgment.
Of course, if it really was clear, your description might have matched Irv's. And there wouldn't be all these other people calling for votes, when it is perfectly clear that voting isn't part of the process. 1067. Angel-Five - 2/26/2000 11:55:39 AM Several people have also stated that there's essentially no changes between the old rules and the new proposed rules. This mystifies me, because there are clearly a lot of changes, and not just in tone and clarity. The mechanism of action on violations is clearly spelled out, and the authority responsible for those actions is also clearly spelled out. This isn't a minor thing, and it perfectly fits the needs of our forum. It may seem plain and simple to us how things are run here -- because as more than one person has said, the new rules seem pretty much to be the way things work now. That, in a nutshell, is a very good reason to adopt the new rules -- because new participants don't know that right off the bat, right now. They don't know how things work and who calls the shots. And it's an issue of concern to any poster as to who can delete/move their posts, and why they can do that. If we can give them an up-front statement which clearly explains how the forum functions AND tell them what is and isn't allowed, we've made things easier for everyone. The new RoE will do exactly that. No one loses by adopting them, and everyone gains. 1068. Angel-Five - 2/26/2000 12:00:28 PM With all due respect, Dusty, my description is pretty close to Irv's. I emphasize the role of the administrator more; but both of us make it clear that the Mote administrators decide, and their decision is based upon the tenor of community feeling on the issue. I think the calls for a vote reduce to earlier claims made by some participants that 'everyone' had expressed support for the adoption of the old RoE and a desire now to have as many people as possible voice their opinion on the matter.
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