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10889. iiibbb - 6/24/2013 7:08:26 PM Let me just say... I've got no real horse in gay, bi, and transgender rights... but I hope the SCOTUS comes out on their side.
I don't know why people in this country go so far out of their way to deny love and/or happiness to others when it in no way is going to affect them one iota.
At least this 6 yr old will have some breathing room for a few years at least.
It isn't about "choice"... it's about identity.
The notion that some 6 yr old or anyone or any family would go through the trouble of getting doctors and psych exams likely required to raise this child as a girl just so they could get 15 minutes of fame, or that any person would risk so much in a currently unfriendly society toward them just so they could get a peek at the opposite sex in a bathroom is downright ludicrous. 10890. PincherMartin - 6/25/2013 2:34:19 AM "It isn't about "choice"... it's about identity."
What utter crap. Gender is about chromosomes and biology, not identity. 10891. PincherMartin - 6/25/2013 2:38:32 AM "The notion that some 6 yr old or anyone or any family would go through the trouble of getting doctors and psych exams likely required to raise this child as a girl just so they could get 15 minutes of fame, or that any person would risk so much in a currently unfriendly society toward them just so they could get a peek at the opposite sex in a bathroom is downright ludicrous."
Nothing ludicrous about it at all. People lie, steal and cheat all the time to get some fame. They put their families at risk to get fame. They even on occasion make their kids complicit in their lies. They will do just about anything so that other people pay more attention to them. 10892. Ms. No - 6/25/2013 3:00:15 AM Gender is about chromosomes and biology, not identity.
No, sex is about biology - male, female, intersex.
Gender is about how one identifies - masculine, feminine, neuter.
10893. PincherMartin - 6/25/2013 5:37:11 AM The only meaningful idea about gender should be based on biology. Everything else is hogwash.
If you have a nut sack, you're a man and should use the men's restroom and play men's, and not women's, sports.
If you have a vulva, you're a woman and should follow the prescribed rules for that gender.
If you have neither, you're a freak - a biological mistake - and should be placed in the closest approximate category that biology can assign to your genetic makeup.
This isn't complicated. 10894. judithathome - 6/25/2013 6:47:40 AM What if you have ovaries and a penis? 10895. PincherMartin - 6/25/2013 8:50:14 AM Then you're a freak. You probably have a one in a 100,000 mutation that's caused you to be a biological oddball.
But even then, science can still show whether you, genetically, tend to lean male or female and categorize you appropriately. That's certainly preferable to having everyone just make their identity up - as Ms. No seems to want to do. 10896. thoughtful - 6/25/2013 2:23:44 PM There's plenty of evidence that gender resides in the brain, regardless of how the body may have messed up creating the genitalia. Some of it comes from the fact that all fetuses start out as female. For males, the ovaries drop down into the labia majora to become testicles and a scrotum while the labia minora close up to become the shaft of the penis and the clitoris becomes the head of the penis. Lots of stuff to get messed up in the process leading to people who are of undetermined gender...at least not by their genitalia. Parents who are smart will leave their children gender neutral until they start to express their own gender which usually will become apparent by the age of 2 or 3.
Then there are those who have XXY chromosomes instead of the XX or XY. 10897. PincherMartin - 6/25/2013 4:16:21 PM "There's plenty of evidence that gender resides in the brain, regardless of how the body may have messed up creating the genitalia."
That people are occasionally screwed up biologically in their thinking, as well as in their bodies, should not be news. Just as children are sometimes born without fingers, feet, or other essential parts that most people consider normal, so they also are sometimes born psychopaths or child molesters or with the strong desire to be a woman when they are clearly a man.
"Some of it comes from the fact that all fetuses start out as female."
All human embryos also go through animal stages. At one point in their development, for example, they have gills. Are you going to use this to argue that if your husband wants to be a fish, he can be?
"Then there are those who have XXY chromosomes instead of the XX or XY."
Yes, the Klinefelter syndrome. They're boys who aren't normal because they have an extra chromosome. They're often infertile and have small penises and big boobs. The condition is not some variation of normal. 10898. Ms. No - 6/25/2013 4:39:55 PM Pincher, you're trying too hard. Nobody is this much of an idiot except on purpose. If you're going to be a clown, at least be a funny clown.
10899. PincherMartin - 6/25/2013 5:19:09 PM I'm completely serious, Ms. No. Just because you're ignorant of basic biology and human development doesn't mean the rest of us have to be.
Your views are also profoundly anti-woman. An example of this can be found in women's sports, which were walled off from men's sports to benefit the competitive spirit and athletic endeavors of women.
But your ignorant views on gender have broken down that wall. Now you can find all kinds of male freaks going into women's sports.
Apparently you either weren't the kind of young woman to compete in sports, and so don't mind screwing things up for your more athletically-inclined sisters, or you simply don't understand the physiological differences between men and women. Neither one speaks well of you. 10900. PincherMartin - 6/25/2013 5:24:06 PM BTW, in regards to that transgender fighter I linked to above, here is what the current woman's MMA champion Ronda Rousey had to say:
UFC fighter Matt Mitrione was suspended indefinitely earlier this week for disparaging comments he made about transgender fighter Fallon Fox. UFC women's champion Ronda Rousey agrees with him, though not with the language he used.
She told the New York Post on Wednesday that Fox, who was a man until undergoing gender reassignment surgery seven years ago, "can try hormones, chop her ... off, but it's still the same bone structure a man has. It's an advantage. I don't think it's fair."
Of course Ronda is right, and Ms No, iiibbb, and Thoughtful are wrong. The difference in men and women goes much deeper than one's junk.10901. iiibbb - 6/25/2013 5:48:43 PM What does a transgender MMA practicioner's bone structure have to do with the rights of a 6 year old with different brain chemistry than a boy?
This may have everything with development in the womb and sensitivity or insensitivity to hormones
At the end of the day... who cares? It affects nobody. The fact that you attribute it on some scheme by the parents to convert one boy of a boy-transgender-girl triplet group is really bizarre.
I know enough people to know it's not about choice. Just looking at the hoops a transgender has to go through it's obvious that no one would casually jump through them over some idle fantasy.
And at the end of the day, who is anyone to judge.
And as far as MMA goes... it's a little two-faced of them to have so many fighters getting Testosterone Replacement Therapy in MMA to say anything about how "natural" someone who has been under hormone therapy for 5 years.
But enough... if MMA is really the battleground you have chosen for whether someone's sexual identity is legitimate or not, you've lost already. 10902. PincherMartin - 6/25/2013 6:24:16 PM iiibbb,
"What does a transgender MMA practicioner's bone structure have to do with the rights of a 6 year old with different brain chemistry than a boy?"
Perhaps you can't keep straight what you say, but aren't you the poster who started off this discussion by saying "It isn't about "choice"... it's about identity."
Just as the male mixed martial artist made a choice to fight as a woman, so the parents made a choice to see their six-year-old as a little girl rather than a little boy. They chose to identify "her" learning disability as a consequence of the school not identifying "her" as a little girl. (How did they come to that conclusion?) They chose to make a big deal out of which bathroom she used, even when an acceptable compromise was found.
And don't talk to me about the differences in brain waves between six-year-old girls and six-year-old boys. You have no clue what you're talking about. Nor do you have any idea what kind of brain waves this six-year-old transgender has. You're just making shit up.
The decision was all about bad parenting, politics, and interest groups. It had nothing to do with science.
"At the end of the day... who cares? It affects nobody."
There you go again - not listening. Apparently because you're too stupid to understand.
I just told you who it affected. Are you going to tell me that the hundreds of millions dollars to be earned in women's sports - more money than you will ever earn in your sorry little life - that it's inconsequential as to which gender earns it?
How about the college athletic scholarships that go to women? Does it not matter who they go to, either? Should we just give them to men who say they're women?
There are a lot of shady men who would love to go after those millions of dollars in women's sports, and get a free college education to boot, if given the chance. Even Renee Richards has called it a potential problem and "she" competed as a woman.
"And as far as MMA goes... it's a little two-faced of them to have so many fighters getting Testosterone Replacement Therapy in MMA to say anything about how "natural" someone who has been under hormone therapy for 5 years. "
The use of TRT in MMA is extremely controversial. It's already banned in some states and will probably be banned in most others in the next couple of years.
"But enough... if MMA is really the battleground you have chosen for whether someone's sexual identity is legitimate or not, you've lost already."
The topic was sports, of which MMA is but a small part. And given the large money and time and interest devoted to sports, I would say that your need to denigrate the topic shows you've lost already.
10903. PincherMartin - 6/25/2013 6:35:01 PM Transgenders are biological mistakes. They have high levels of depression, substance abuse, and suicide rates, and many who have surgical procedures to change their sex come to regret their decision.
That has nothing to do with the pressures of living in the most tolerant society in world history. There's no society that can accommodate such a mistake - at least enough to overcome the biology.
Transgendered or not, that poor six-year-old kid is in for a world of hurt. If this is just a phase he's going through, then his parents have abused him horribly. If he's truly a transgender, he's still has to deal with the consequences of being a mistake. 10904. iiibbb - 6/25/2013 7:24:38 PM So this six year old is gunning for a woman's spot in highly lucrative womens' sports? Really... that's why they do it?
I was just thinking that all of these women's sports are already awash with the current crop of transgenders.
If you are telling me that Transgenders are biological mistakes, you're already conceding that it's nature... there is no reason to force them to live any other kind of life than the one their brain is wired for. Deaf people are biological mistakes. Blind people are biological mistakes. Putting up obstacles above and beyond the ones they're already going to face in life isn't something we should bother ourselves with. This person is going to present herself female for the rest of her life probably... under the guidance of her parents, and medical professionals. By the time she's 18 and has take hormones and had a female puberty I guarantee she's not going to have any sort of male bone structure other than her pelvis. 10905. iiibbb - 6/25/2013 7:25:07 PM And you can attack my credibility all you want... this is the internet... your credentials are the equal to mine. 10906. iiibbb - 6/25/2013 7:29:49 PM And man... you really jumped into the personal attacks pretty quick for a board that is traditionally pretty civil among those who disagree.
Stupid?
No, I just think the societal tilt against GLBT persons is stupid. Let people live their lives. Love who they want. Whatever. It is an absolute waste of energy to try to make these people's lives difficult.
So I hope the SCOTUS starts to push the wall down with a pro gay marriage ruling. 10907. iiibbb - 6/25/2013 7:46:03 PM No... I've thought about it.
It isn't about choice. It is about identity. You may disagree with me, but the fact of the matter is that no matter what you say about them, they're identity is theirs and there isn't a whole lot you're going to do to change it. You may repress it... but you won't change someone's nature.
Like what if one day people weren't allowed to be assholes anymore. You would be in trouble Pincer... you'd want speak your mind but someone would be there to swat you on the ear and tell you to shut the fuck up.
That would probably get on your nerves after a while... but it wouldn't cure you of being an asshole. 10908. PincherMartin - 6/25/2013 8:01:22 PM "So this six year old is gunning for a woman's spot in highly lucrative womens' sports? Really... that's why they do it?"
No, but they could be doing it for attention - just as the bubble boy's parents used their kids for attention.
I see family visits to Oprah, Ellen, and The View - and anywhere else double-digit IQ women gather in order to bolster each other's stupidity. Then comes the million-dollar book deal. Then more talk shows. Then a visit to the White House, where Obama can shine a beatific smile down on the blessed lad as he tells the family it's okay for their little boy to be a girl.
Then ten years down the road, after the little boy becomes a young man, he can do the talk shows again, but this time to talk about what a fucking mistake his parents made. Then another book deal and more talk shows. Perhaps by then, we'll have a more conservative president in the White House who can tell the former six-year-old transgender that it's okay for him to not want to be a little girl.
"I was just thinking that all of these women's sports are already awash with the current crop of transgenders."
No, they're not. Not yet. But they soon will be. There are enough guys out there with moderate athletic ability who, with the right incentives, might feel the desire to branch out. Perhaps for money, attention, or because they're just bored with life. And real women athletes, like Rondy Rousey, are right to be pissed off about it.
But I guess this shows that women's athletics - and Title IX, which led to their expansion - were always a joke. You can see that the women here don't care about athletic competition, which is what most of us men suspected from the beginning. You wanted attention, not a level platform for athletic competition.
"If you are telling me that Transgenders are biological mistakes, you're already conceding that it's nature... there is no reason to force them to live any other kind of life than the one their brain is wired for."
What they want to do, and what they are, are two entirely different things. The ambiguity is usually easy to settle on biological grounds, but it's never easy to settle on psychological grounds - which is why you get men who want to be women and then are still not happy when they go under the knife because no amount of surgery and dress-up and social acceptance can make a mistake happy.
It's like being born without any arms and legs. Or with two heads. The condition itself is not conducive to happiness.
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