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10989. arkymalarky - 7/6/2013 7:10:09 PM It's not about Zimmerman. It's about whether people who might look scary to such cowards are allowed to walk on the street without being followed and shot. He could have at any point elected to do what he was told. 10990. judithathome - 7/6/2013 8:01:19 PM but the evidence has Martin accosting Zimmerman and then throwing him to the ground and beating him before being shot.
From where? That's what Zimmerman and his best buddy say but there were no eye-witnesses to it as you describe it. There were people who saw them ON the ground but I don't recall anyone saying they saw the entire thing, only the "after" part when they were already on the ground. It's Zimmerman's word...to his best friend who put it in a book...that he was accosted. He also said Martin leaped out of the bushes...which is bullshit because the bushes in that complex are not even knee-high.
Why those fools let that best friend testify is beyond me...it was all hearsay. Some have said the prosecution called him because they felt the defense would have anyway...if that had happened, the prosecution could have jumped up and objected to every single thing the guy said because all he testified to were things Zimmerman had TOLD him.
Zimmerman, by warrant of the fact he was following Martin with a gun loaded with hollow point bullets and no safety on was the aggressor.
As Arky said, if that had been a woman, Zimmerman would be toast. It was dark...how could he tell if it wasn't just an athletic girl from the local high school basketball team when he started following? He couldn't...because he'd made up his mind it was a "menacing" young man...one of "those who always get away with it".
And now HE wants to become on of those who gets away with it...and probably will.
And Zimmerman, no matter what the verdict, is not getting away scot free with anything.
Really? How so? Looks pretty alive and kicking to me...
10991. Trillium - 7/7/2013 1:28:20 PM Question: what if Zimmerman had in fact been a gay man? Didn't Jeantel suggest to Trayvon that that was why the "creepy-ass cracker" was following him? (Flagrant racism and homophobia, isn't it?)
If Trayvon assaulted Zimmerman because he thought a creepy-ass cracker homosexual was "following" him, was that assault justified? Just askin'. Seems like this case is jumbling a lot of politically correct responses. 10992. arkymalarky - 7/7/2013 4:17:46 PM The point is it doesn't matter. Change anything in this scenario, change anyone into anything you want. It does not change the fact Zimmermann followed a stranger for no reason and when the Stranger turned to confront him, Zimmermn shot and killed him. 10993. arkymalarky - 7/7/2013 4:31:05 PM Deflection from the point is a standard tactic,but it doesn't change anything. It doesn't matter what Martin thought. What matters is what Zimmerman did. And if he feels compelled to stalk strangers, yet when confronted shoot to kill, he's a menace to society. 10994. Ms. No - 7/7/2013 5:08:53 PM I don't think Zimmerman was out of line initially --- he's on the neighborhood watch in an area that had recently seen multiple break-ins by primarily black youth. It's not odd or abnormal for him to be interested in a strange black kid dressed like prior suspects walking through the neighborhood at night. If he hadn't been interested, he'd be a lousy member of the neighborhood watch.
Zimmerman was overzealous in continuing to follow Martin after being instructed not to --- but that can be understood based on the prior break-ins for which no suspects had ever been apprehended.
And then we get to all the idiocy and tragedy anyone could ever want.
Martin, rather than dial 911 himself -- understandable because of the poor record police have in the south for helping rather than harming blacks -- decides to confront Zimmerman and physically assault him.
Who does that? Teenage boys with more macho than mental aquity for the most part. Teenage boys are hotheads and they like to solve things with violence.
Unfortunately for everyone involved, Zimmerman was armed, so he shot the kid who jumped him for following --- which he likely wouldn't have done to begin with if he hadn't been armed.
So, I agree with VonK that Zimmerman should have been charged with manslaughter --- he went out into the street with a gun and followed another person with the intent to interfere and that person ended up dead --- he would almost certainly have been convicted.
Because the media or whoever decided to spin this as a case of racial injustice, it is unlikely that Zimmerman will be convicted. A conviction for manslaughter would've been cake, but proving premeditation and/or intent to kill just isn't likely to fly. And that's too bad, because folks shouldn't wander around "policing" their neighborhoods with guns. We have professionals for that, and Zimmerman certainly wasn't one.
10995. arkymalarky - 7/7/2013 7:51:56 PM But he wasn't on the neighborhood watch. He was acting on his own. That to me is a big part of the issue. He was taking it on himself to do a job no one, not even the community, had authorized him to do. And when told to stop he continued. And his behavior since has made anything he says suspect, so going by his injuries alone he was not in danger. 10996. arkymalarky - 7/7/2013 8:00:18 PM And people who are on neighborhood watch call 911 and follow their instructions. He doesn't even meet the level of vigilante. The kid was walking.
My BIL's house was being broken into by a young black teenaged boy while he was at work. His retired neighbor, a black man who had worked in railroad security, failed 911. He told the operator the kid was in the window and he was going to shoot if the kid didn't stop. They asked his authorization, he told them, the kid didn't stop and the neighbor killed him halfway in the window. The kid had a gun out and died on top of it. Zimmerman was an unauthorized idiot from the gitgo who did not follow proper procedures at any point. That Martin didn't either is not material. He was the threatened one. 10997. Trillium - 7/8/2013 5:24:06 AM http://m.cbsnews.com/fullstory.rbml?catid=57591180&feed_id=999&videofeed=999
In the CBS link (and other reports), Jeantel describes talking with Martin saying that he is being followed by a creepy ass cracker and Martin confronting the man to ask why he was following him; Jeantel says she thought the man following Martin was a rapist.
It does matter what motivated both of the young men. If Martin thought he was being accosted by a threatening gay man, and jeantel's testimony makes it sound that way -- and Martin responded by punching the man, breaking his nose, and telling Zimmerman that he would die that night? I can see how the misunderstandings of intent on both sides escalated into violence -and it is tragic all around - but I would not want to convict Zimmerman of murder if I had to sit on that jury (and I'm thankful that I don't) . I can well imagine how and why Martin became aggressive, and also why Zimmerman would have been desperate to defend himself while being beaten. What a miserable situation.
There are men who rape other men, inside and outside prisons... And if my head were being
Banged on concrete by a guy on top of me who had just punched in my nose, I would defend myself however possible. 10998. iiibbb - 7/8/2013 3:06:06 PM Just addressing a few things on this page.
I've said it before the Martin/Zimmerman shooting was a bad shoot in my opinion because he should have stayed in his car and left confronting Martin directly to the police. From a safety standpoint, Zimmerman had no idea whether Martin was even alone. Dumb shoot.
In response to Judith. Hollow points are totally normal. The police load with hollow points. They are actually safer because they don't penetrate and hit things behind them, and tend to shatter when they hit things that are hard. Roundnose bullets are more likely to go through things or ricochet long distances. It is a side-effect that hollow points create more dramatic wounds.... but if you're shooting to kill (and that's the only reason to shoot) that seems desirable.
I don't think Zimmerman is guilty of murder. Murder is the wrong charge IMHO. It should be manslaughter.
Zimmerman is the worst possible example of a self defense shooting and people that defend him are undermining legitimate shoots. If Zimmerman had read the cautionary tale of Harold Fish he might have stayed in his car. Mr Fish now says if he'd had it to do all over again he'd not shoot... but based on the story of what happened to Fish, he had a much more legitimate reason for pulling the trigger than Zimmerman. 10999. arkymalarky - 7/8/2013 4:06:49 PM I agree with absolutely everything 3i said. Except I don't know anything about hollow tips so I take his word on that. 11000. arkymalarky - 7/8/2013 4:13:38 PM "Zimmerman is the worst possible example of a self defense shooting and people that defend him are undermining legitimate shoots."
Exactly. The example I gave above is one IMO. No one questioned it, but even in that case, had the kid not been armed the neighbor could have been in trouble. His view was that the kid refused to stop and no one knew if anyone was in the house. You don't have a right to follow people you suspect and shoot them when they understandably deck you. 11001. iiibbb - 7/8/2013 4:14:30 PM Hollow Point safety 11002. arkymalarky - 7/8/2013 4:30:14 PM Hey I got a millennial! Yay me! 11003. iiibbb - 7/8/2013 4:53:34 PM It is always sweeter when it's a legit post too. 11004. iiibbb - 7/8/2013 4:54:06 PM But technically, mine is the millennial :) 11005. iiibbb - 7/8/2013 4:57:18 PM well technically, I guess we're both winners 11006. arkymalarky - 7/8/2013 5:14:15 PM Haha! All those poor saps who got millenials all these years and were robbed of their proper glory! 11007. arkymalarky - 7/8/2013 5:16:50 PM The sweetest ones are when you divebomb someone who thinks he's the only poster around at the moment and is going in for a freebie. 11008. vonKreedon - 7/8/2013 5:27:06 PM Well Arky, we are now all in agreement that Zimmerman should have been charged with manslaughter and not murder.
Regarding Zimmerman not being a member of the neighborhood watch:
CS Monitor:
"But Zimmerman's family, his neighbors and his lawyer paint a different picture: That of a devoted neighbor, keen enough to protect the neighborhood that residents, in establishing a local Neighborhood Watch group last year, appointed him the captain. The organization was not registered with the national Neighborhood Watch program, but was set up with the assistance of the Sanford Police Department. Zimmerman initiated the program, according to Wendy Dorival, the department's volunteer coordinator."
While Martin felt threatened he was the one who broke Zimmerman's nose and was beating Zimmerman's head against the ground when he was shot, so on balance at the time of the shooting Zimmerman was the one being done harm and so had tangible reason for feeling his life was in danger.
Zimmerman was never ordered to stay in the car, the 911 dispatcher suggested that he stay in the car, not the same thing as a police officer ordering you to stay somewhere.
I completely agree with i3b3's assessment of the situation.
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