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10997. Trillium - 7/8/2013 5:24:06 AM http://m.cbsnews.com/fullstory.rbml?catid=57591180&feed_id=999&videofeed=999
In the CBS link (and other reports), Jeantel describes talking with Martin saying that he is being followed by a creepy ass cracker and Martin confronting the man to ask why he was following him; Jeantel says she thought the man following Martin was a rapist.
It does matter what motivated both of the young men. If Martin thought he was being accosted by a threatening gay man, and jeantel's testimony makes it sound that way -- and Martin responded by punching the man, breaking his nose, and telling Zimmerman that he would die that night? I can see how the misunderstandings of intent on both sides escalated into violence -and it is tragic all around - but I would not want to convict Zimmerman of murder if I had to sit on that jury (and I'm thankful that I don't) . I can well imagine how and why Martin became aggressive, and also why Zimmerman would have been desperate to defend himself while being beaten. What a miserable situation.
There are men who rape other men, inside and outside prisons... And if my head were being
Banged on concrete by a guy on top of me who had just punched in my nose, I would defend myself however possible. 10998. iiibbb - 7/8/2013 3:06:06 PM Just addressing a few things on this page.
I've said it before the Martin/Zimmerman shooting was a bad shoot in my opinion because he should have stayed in his car and left confronting Martin directly to the police. From a safety standpoint, Zimmerman had no idea whether Martin was even alone. Dumb shoot.
In response to Judith. Hollow points are totally normal. The police load with hollow points. They are actually safer because they don't penetrate and hit things behind them, and tend to shatter when they hit things that are hard. Roundnose bullets are more likely to go through things or ricochet long distances. It is a side-effect that hollow points create more dramatic wounds.... but if you're shooting to kill (and that's the only reason to shoot) that seems desirable.
I don't think Zimmerman is guilty of murder. Murder is the wrong charge IMHO. It should be manslaughter.
Zimmerman is the worst possible example of a self defense shooting and people that defend him are undermining legitimate shoots. If Zimmerman had read the cautionary tale of Harold Fish he might have stayed in his car. Mr Fish now says if he'd had it to do all over again he'd not shoot... but based on the story of what happened to Fish, he had a much more legitimate reason for pulling the trigger than Zimmerman. 10999. arkymalarky - 7/8/2013 4:06:49 PM I agree with absolutely everything 3i said. Except I don't know anything about hollow tips so I take his word on that. 11000. arkymalarky - 7/8/2013 4:13:38 PM "Zimmerman is the worst possible example of a self defense shooting and people that defend him are undermining legitimate shoots."
Exactly. The example I gave above is one IMO. No one questioned it, but even in that case, had the kid not been armed the neighbor could have been in trouble. His view was that the kid refused to stop and no one knew if anyone was in the house. You don't have a right to follow people you suspect and shoot them when they understandably deck you. 11001. iiibbb - 7/8/2013 4:14:30 PM Hollow Point safety 11002. arkymalarky - 7/8/2013 4:30:14 PM Hey I got a millennial! Yay me! 11003. iiibbb - 7/8/2013 4:53:34 PM It is always sweeter when it's a legit post too. 11004. iiibbb - 7/8/2013 4:54:06 PM But technically, mine is the millennial :) 11005. iiibbb - 7/8/2013 4:57:18 PM well technically, I guess we're both winners 11006. arkymalarky - 7/8/2013 5:14:15 PM Haha! All those poor saps who got millenials all these years and were robbed of their proper glory! 11007. arkymalarky - 7/8/2013 5:16:50 PM The sweetest ones are when you divebomb someone who thinks he's the only poster around at the moment and is going in for a freebie. 11008. vonKreedon - 7/8/2013 5:27:06 PM Well Arky, we are now all in agreement that Zimmerman should have been charged with manslaughter and not murder.
Regarding Zimmerman not being a member of the neighborhood watch:
CS Monitor:
"But Zimmerman's family, his neighbors and his lawyer paint a different picture: That of a devoted neighbor, keen enough to protect the neighborhood that residents, in establishing a local Neighborhood Watch group last year, appointed him the captain. The organization was not registered with the national Neighborhood Watch program, but was set up with the assistance of the Sanford Police Department. Zimmerman initiated the program, according to Wendy Dorival, the department's volunteer coordinator."
While Martin felt threatened he was the one who broke Zimmerman's nose and was beating Zimmerman's head against the ground when he was shot, so on balance at the time of the shooting Zimmerman was the one being done harm and so had tangible reason for feeling his life was in danger.
Zimmerman was never ordered to stay in the car, the 911 dispatcher suggested that he stay in the car, not the same thing as a police officer ordering you to stay somewhere.
I completely agree with i3b3's assessment of the situation. 11009. judithathome - 7/8/2013 5:57:26 PM The non-emergency operator he called wasn't authorized to give him orders not to follow...they can't do that, which is why they "suggested" he stay in the car: "we don't need you to do that"...and suggested he call 911. More than once.
and telling Zimmerman that he would die that night?
We only have Zimmerman's word...and his buddy's who testified as to what was said...for that. Nice and tidy, don't you think...the only one still living gets to claim what was said. And it's allowed into testimony even though it should have been labeled "hearsay" since the guy only heard it from Zimmerman after the fact and wasn't even around until way after the shooting. 11010. judithathome - 7/8/2013 5:59:11 PM It's so comforting to me to know that every yahoo at the SuperSav packing heat is carrying a gun loaded with hollow points and the only reason they are carrying that gun is shoot to kill. 11011. vonKreedon - 7/8/2013 6:13:59 PM Why else would one carry a weapon designed specifically to kill? Any gun safety/use class teaches that if you shoot then shoot to kill. It's what guns do. And, as 13b3 said, hollow points are less likely to cause additional casualties by going through the target and walls behind the target. 11012. judithathome - 7/8/2013 6:34:48 PM Well, you are talking to someone who thinks guns belong in the military and in movies so.... 11013. vonKreedon - 7/8/2013 6:46:37 PM I'm largely in agreement with you Judith, but that is the not law and so we have to judge the case as the law is not as we wish it were. 11014. Ms. No - 7/8/2013 8:51:37 PM Can they go back and charge him with manslaughter if he gets off for murder? 11015. vonKreedon - 7/8/2013 8:56:51 PM That would be double jeopardy. I'm not sure if the jury can return a verdict on anything other than the charge of murder 2. 11016. robertjayb - 7/9/2013 1:23:15 AM Zimmerman will walk...
...and he should. The guy is a doofus and a wannabe cop. I have no use for either species, but it seems to me his story hangs together pretty well. Sure, he has tried to cast himself in the best light. But, hey, some of the more outrageous howlers for his hide are talking life in prison.
Trillium is correct, It is a miserable situation. vonK is correct that a 911 operator's "We don't need you to do that." comment cannot be construed to be a police order.
So a kid who shouldn't be dead is dead. A sad sack who should not have been in the position he was in (with the apparent blessing of his neighbors and the local police) has achieved infamy for doing his duty as he saw it.
Neither law nor common sense required Zimmerman to take a potentially injurious, or even fatal beating. Being alone and taking a pounding from a stranger at night is unlike a bar fight or a punchup with the brother-in-law. There you could figure the damage would stop or be stopped short of serious injury. Zimmerman couldn't count on that so he relied on the tired cop cliche: "Being in fear of my life I discharged my service weapon."
I am pleased there is a all-woman jury. Zimmerman should be as well. They will try very hard to do the right thing.
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