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11067. iiibbb - 7/11/2013 4:36:29 PM anomie... it all depends on how you break up the timeline... when Zimmerman pulled the trigger, I'm certain he feared for his life...
but that doesn't absolve him of circumstances that were of his own making.
Florida Stand Your Ground
776.041 Use of force by aggressor. —The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.
I don't see how Zimmerman escapes these clauses. 11068. iiibbb - 7/11/2013 4:38:09 PM ... but maybe he will... if people believe him when he says he had tried to withdraw after being confronted by Martin...
...but it is a very fine line he's walking.
Jury will decide I guess. 11069. iiibbb - 7/11/2013 4:40:35 PM It is all about the timeline of events... I haven't followed the case in detail, and admit I'm biased at this point because as someone who believes in self defense and gun ownership, he broke every rule in any training I've ever had. 11070. arkymalarky - 7/11/2013 4:43:36 PM No I'm not. You've yet to point out where. You're ignoring the ebidence even after having it clearly and repeatedly pointed out.
And Amomie, are you seriously telling me you can't tell the difference between suggesting how things might be different in another scenario and discussing what actually happened? The purpose of using alternate circumstances is to illustrate through contrast. No one is making stuff up.
I'll refrain from posting in all caps that it is not perfectly legal to do dumb stuff that leads to somebody being killed!
11071. anomie - 7/11/2013 4:44:03 PM 3b, as long as we're making stuff up, how's this: Martin precipitated and escalated the situation... I have just as much evidence as you do.
Z has no duty to escape those clauses. You have the duty to prove what he did or didn't do. See what I mean? You have no proof, so yuo're just turning the burden around.
I hate to keep appealing to your intelligence, but you are all better than this. You're better than to be a part of the mob or the witch hunt.
I scratch my head. 11072. arkymalarky - 7/11/2013 4:46:49 PM The phone records are proof. Without them you'd have an argument. With them you simply don't. 11073. anomie - 7/11/2013 4:48:28 PM Arky. Proof. Don't keep citing facts and scenarios that could be true or not. Give me proof that IN THIS CASE it was not self defense. I can agree in principle with much of what you've said, but that's not the point. 11074. anomie - 7/11/2013 4:51:10 PM Phone records? Proves it was murder/manslaughter? Proves what exactly? Are you being serious?
On that insane note, I'm quitting this discussion. I hope I'm wrong, but I see a real travesty of justice about to take place. I hope he gets a good appeal attorney.
later, ya'll 11075. iiibbb - 7/11/2013 4:54:31 PM Jury will decide...
Zimmerman's phone conversations don't seem to convey that he had knowledge that Martin had actually done something... but the law is worded "had reason to believe"
I suppose someone, particularly someone predisposed to paranoia, can talk themselves into anything then and just shoot away.
I'm not a lawyer... I'm not on the jury.
Zimmerman's story stinks. 11076. iiibbb - 7/11/2013 4:55:49 PM and I am as pro-gun, pro self defense as you can get.
just goes to show, that it is best to avoid confrontations of all kinds...... especially if you're packing a gun. 11077. arkymalarky - 7/11/2013 5:05:11 PM What's the proof OJ killed his ex wife? 11078. arkymalarky - 7/11/2013 5:07:15 PM He was acquitted and people were outraged, but there's less doubt and more evidence here than in that case. 11079. iiibbb - 7/11/2013 5:10:29 PM Who's making stuff up?
FACT - Martin was in the neighborhood
FACT - Zimmerman followed him and was recorded following him in his car
FACT - Zimmerman was advised to stay in car, but got out anyway
FACT - Zimmerman was followed martin into an area where cars can't go
FACT - Martin Confronted Zimmerman
UNKNOWN - what was said, who attacked who first
FACT - Zimmerman shot Martin
Impossible to know - Zimmerman's state of mind
Impossible to know - Martin's state of mind
Obvious through logic - Zimmerman, if assuming Martin is up to something unlawful, should have recognized the inherent risk in confronting a person alone, in the dark.
Obvious through law - There is no duty to retreat - for either Martin or Zimmerman
Obvious through law - If you witness or have reason to believe that someone was up to something unlawful as shown above, you can shoot.
He may very well get off as the law is written... but Zimmerman stinks...
Obvious --- don't get into confrontations with people in Florida, because they can shoot you purely on what they believe you're going to do. 11080. arkymalarky - 7/11/2013 5:13:20 PM The last obvious on your list is the one that I think is the most important one wrt impact. 11081. arkymalarky - 7/11/2013 5:14:00 PM If Z is acquitted. 11082. judithathome - 7/12/2013 12:22:18 AM My "facts" are coming from what I have observed every day in testimony from the trial. I have heard everything the jury has heard. Yes, it shows a bit of madness in me that I taped...and watched...ALL of the trial. But I think I know what I heard and I think I am intelligent enough to interpret what I heard.
Z has told many things to the police that don't add up...for instance, he was on his back, in the grass, on the concrete and yet, at the police station, the picture of the back of his jacket is shows it to be immaculate...not grass stains, no scrapes from the cement, no wetness....nice trick for someone who was on his back being pounded and ground into the surface of both grass and cement. 11083. judithathome - 7/14/2013 3:00:25 AM Not Guilty.
11084. robertjayb - 7/14/2013 3:14:16 AM Brave, smart women. They did good work 11085. anomie - 7/14/2013 4:17:04 AM Yes, kudos to the jury and I'm happy to have been wrong.
I agree with Don West, one of the defense attys, the prosecution was shameful. 11086. Wombat - 7/14/2013 4:28:30 AM A teenage boy is dead because some wannabe larry-lawman took the law into his own hands. I understand how the verdict was reached. I hope Martin's family sues the living shit out of Zimmerman.
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