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11332. robertjayb - 12/6/2013 2:02:50 AM I'm having a hard time thinking of great men, public men, in my lifetime.
Mandala heads my list. At random, briefly, on the fly, these names come to mind as possibles: Churchill. Eisenhower. Sadat. Golda Mier. Gorbachev. Thatcher? Ghandi. MLK. Ho Chi Minh.
Shouda, couda, wouda: LBJ. Nixon. Clinton. JFK. deGaulle?
Comments?
11333. arkymalarky - 12/6/2013 2:12:37 AM Hmmmm. Definitely Mandela. Hard to think of anyone else at the moment. 11334. robertjayb - 12/6/2013 5:17:16 AM Col. Pat Lang comments:
Nelson Mandela died today. He was one of the 20th Century's great men. Forebearing, and long suffering, he early turned from the path of violence. I have never heard anyone suggest that he was personally anything other than a man of great integrity and kindness.
Willem de Klerk was the last apartheid president of South Africa. He and Mandela were jointly awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in 1993. De Klerk made the key decision to yield political power in South Africa to majority rule. He ordered Mandela released from prison and served as vice-president in the new regime. He still lives and is a lecturer across the world.
Two remarkable men. pl 11335. Wombat - 12/6/2013 5:29:38 AM Mandela was one of the few freedom fighters who knew how to take "yes" for an answer, who was pragmatic enough not to seek absolute power, and who knew when to step down. In my mind, there are only two others: George Washington (more accurately the collective called the founding fathers) and Michael Collins (Ireland). 11336. Jenerator - 12/10/2013 11:41:09 PM While I admire Mandela, I have questions about his relationship with Charles Taylor and his role in the ANC.
Power corrupts. 11337. judithathome - 12/13/2013 6:24:18 AM You know, that asshole "signer" at the Mandela ceremony yesterday is something that ought to be a wake-up call for everyone in the world...the fact that an admitted mentally-ill person was allowed to get THAT close to world leaders is absolutely INSANE. 11338. anomie - 12/13/2013 6:36:17 PM Whenever I think of great men, courage, gumption, sacrifice... I think of the "Tank Man" in Tiananmen Square. 11339. arkymalarky - 12/13/2013 7:36:47 PM I use that in class. 11340. judithathome - 12/22/2013 10:09:19 PM Okay, all this talk about Snowden's motives, etc. can stop now...he has offered to "trade" info to Brazil for "something".
In other words, he is bored with Russia and the beaches of Ipanema are looking a lot more inviting than the frozen pipes in his one room walkup in Moscow.
Some Call This Treason; HE Calls It "Help" 11341. alistairconnor - 12/23/2013 4:29:53 PM Judith, as I recall, you have spent a large part of your life on US military bases, with 24/7 surveillance and security.
The rest of us -- and especially non-Americans -- never made that choice. But we got the 24/7 surveillance anyway. 11342. judithathome - 12/23/2013 7:26:17 PM People in England have had cameras on them for decades...you act as though the US started this whole thing...
And for the record: I spent barely 10 years of the 30+ years I have been married to Keoni "in the military" and only lived one of those years on a military base. The rest I lived "off base", like the rest of the population in the countries where he served.
And trust me, I felt much safer in Japan and Germany (living off base) than I ever did...or DO...in the USA.
11343. alistairconnor - 12/24/2013 2:01:09 AM OK sorry for bringing up your private life, I was just trying to find a rationalization for why you're OK with the US spying on the entire world, its own citizens included... just a question of temperament I suppose.
Personally I think that if the USA survives as a democratic nation, Snowden will be revered as one of its saviours.
But you seem to have understood something about his motives that I have missed. Would you care to explain to me? 11344. Wombat - 12/24/2013 4:23:34 AM Snowden's first revelations on the level of surveillance that appears to be taking place in the US were shocking to some, and set off a needed discussion on whether the security of the United States needs this level of collection and intrusive data analysis.
His latest revelations are beginning to get into what are called "sources and methods" in intelspeak, in addition to blowing programs that are very much in the US (and its allies') interests.
It also seems that he planned his most recent job changes to try and get increased access to this information, as opposed to "stumbling onto" this "shocking" information. At best, he is trying to emulate Assange, at worst he is selling information to countries whose interests are not always the same as ours, and who have human rights and intrusive government policies that are considerably worse than ours. 11345. judithathome - 12/24/2013 5:46:20 AM I'll just say I find it humorous that people in this country are so up in arms over being "spied upon" when 9/10ths of them are posting things about themselves almost every minute of the day and seem to have no problems whatsoever with revealing their innermost thoughts and feelings AND their actions almost 24/7 but seem soooo upset that the government might be tracking what phone numbers they call. 11346. robertjayb - 12/24/2013 7:02:07 AM Snowden speaks:
WASHINGTON (AP) — National Security Agency leaker Edward Snowden said his "mission's already accomplished" after leaking NSA secrets that have caused a reassessment of U.S. surveillance policies
Snowden told The Washington Post in an interview published online Monday night that he was satisfied because journalists have been able to tell the story of the government's collection of bulk Internet and phone records, an activity that has grown dramatically in the decade since the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks.
"For me, in terms of personal satisfaction, the mission's already accomplished," he said. "I already won."
(via houston chronicle)
Snowden's "mission accomplished" is a hell of a lot more valid than Shrub Bush's. 11347. robertjayb - 12/24/2013 7:24:25 AM http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2013/12/22/212456/a-spy-world-reshaped-by-edward.html 11348. Wombat - 12/24/2013 4:40:55 PM No disagreement there. Whether or not it leaves the country better off is still open to question. 11349. Wombat - 12/24/2013 4:54:04 PM No disagreement there. Whether or not it leaves the country better off is still open to question. 11350. alistairconnor - 12/24/2013 5:51:43 PM Wombat : Just a correction : programs that are very much in the US (and and/or its allies') interests.
There is a hell of a lot of stuff about how the US systematically spies on its (alleged) allies. I can understand how Americans may feel that revealing this stuff makes America worse off -- and it's probably even true in the short term (IT export numbers?) -- but I don't think it's a healthy way to behave, in the long term.
As for blown programs which were in its allies interest, I'd like examples (since it's in the public domain anyway). 11351. alistairconnor - 12/24/2013 5:54:09 PM Another point : Snowden is no longer in possession of the raw info. He handed it off to Poitras and Greenwald before he went to Russia. How much control he has over the selection and release of information is open to question : as far as I can see, Poitras and Greenwald are driving that, and doing a good job of what they choose to reveal, in my opinion. But I'm open to other points of view.
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