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11349. Wombat - 12/24/2013 4:54:04 PM No disagreement there. Whether or not it leaves the country better off is still open to question. 11350. alistairconnor - 12/24/2013 5:51:43 PM Wombat : Just a correction : programs that are very much in the US (and and/or its allies') interests.
There is a hell of a lot of stuff about how the US systematically spies on its (alleged) allies. I can understand how Americans may feel that revealing this stuff makes America worse off -- and it's probably even true in the short term (IT export numbers?) -- but I don't think it's a healthy way to behave, in the long term.
As for blown programs which were in its allies interest, I'd like examples (since it's in the public domain anyway). 11351. alistairconnor - 12/24/2013 5:54:09 PM Another point : Snowden is no longer in possession of the raw info. He handed it off to Poitras and Greenwald before he went to Russia. How much control he has over the selection and release of information is open to question : as far as I can see, Poitras and Greenwald are driving that, and doing a good job of what they choose to reveal, in my opinion. But I'm open to other points of view. 11352. arkymalarky - 12/24/2013 7:20:45 PM Fwiw IMHO:
The US created this monster by trying to scoop up tech wizzes without holding them to the same standards as other employees, IMO partly to try to keep up andbpartly to keep them from going elsewhere. Snowden had no business with that kind of access in the first place.
Privacy is important in the database everything age. So is security of info. I don't know that those two things are possible.
To me, too much emphasis is on Snowden and not enough on the NSA. It could have been much worse and it is time for a thorough revamp of the NSA code of operation and reassessment of its purpose and scope.
Just because people can put what they want out there doesn't mean any govt has the right to scoop it all and just because they or any other govt can scoop it up and crunch it in a multitude of ways doesn't mean it should; but it does mean it will. It's the nature of the beast. We live in a different age and, as always, our ethical understanding of how to use our tech is far behind the tech itself.
11353. judithathome - 12/24/2013 7:39:31 PM I guess being the only country in the world spying on their allies does put us in a awkward position.S
(That "S", by the way, stands for sarcasm.) 11354. judithathome - 12/24/2013 7:41:14 PM Another point: Snowden is no longer in possession of the raw info. He handed it off to Poitras and Greenwald before he went to Russia.
Well...that is true if you believe him. His track-record for "honesty" isn't exactly stellar. 11355. robertjayb - 12/24/2013 9:00:03 PM The US created this monster by trying to scoop up tech wizzes...
Snowden had no business with that kind of access in the first place...not sure I agree, he seems a smart guy doing a pretty good job, so far, of evading the suits that want to lock him up forever and always...But that is certainly true on Bradley (or whatever) Manning. That poor dweeb was way, way out of place and the people who put him there should be locked up alongside him...well, maybe not alongside.
The fact that Cheney, Rumsfeld, Bush, Wolfowitz, et al, are walking around free taking bows chaps my behind. These "patriots" did far more damage to the country, my country, than Snowden, Manning, and Assange could ever have managed even if they intended harm. 11356. robertjayb - 12/24/2013 9:04:09 PM His track-record for "honesty" isn't exactly stellar.
Is that a "some-say" item or do you have examples? 11357. arkymalarky - 12/24/2013 9:20:49 PM Robert, he was a dropout without the scrutiny, background or training. He was a whiz kid contract worker. That's great, but not reason enough to give him so much access. Our system of gvt contracting is out of control and set to biteusin a HUGE way. 11358. arkymalarky - 12/24/2013 9:21:50 PM I agree with you otherwise. 11359. arkymalarky - 12/24/2013 9:28:44 PM I want to write a book about the corporatization/privatization of the US gvt since 1980, which I had originally centered on public education, though it's much deeper and broader than that, of course; but I'm too busy and lazy. One of you needs to do it. 11360. Wombat - 12/24/2013 10:35:46 PM Snowden had triggered some alarm bells while on contract to the CIA, by trying to access information that he was not cleared for. Somehow--as so often happens--this information did not make it over to the NSA.
Snowden first got his clearance by being in the military, which gives "secret" clearances routinely to its members. 11361. arkymalarky - 12/24/2013 11:49:49 PM If they don't fix those kinds of systemic problems something way worse than Snowden could happen. 11362. judithathome - 12/25/2013 2:38:22 AM Is that a "some-say" item or do you have examples?
Are you shitting me? The guy stole from his employer...to say nothing of his stealing from his government. He stole information and decamped to China...then to Russia...he is a bona fide THIEF. It has nothing to do with "some say"....HE is quite open about the fact.
If I worked for a credit card company and accessed 100 to 1,000 credit card numbers w/security codes and private information about the card holders and took them to another country and threatened to expose or sell them... and then did so with the help of a reporter...would you be asking for "examples"?
11363. judithathome - 12/25/2013 2:53:29 AM Anyhow...Merry Christmas to all...we're going to the movies tomorrow to see American Hustle...apropos, I think. ;-) 11364. arkymalarky - 12/25/2013 3:21:44 AM Mom and Dad loved it. 11365. judithathome - 12/25/2013 3:33:36 AM Looking forward to it! 11366. robertjayb - 12/25/2013 3:51:48 AM HE is quite open about the fact.
Exactly. In my opinion he is honest to a fault about what he is doing and why. And not a few approve while also thinking he is treading dangerously by tweaking an entrenched system whose bureaucrats will not hesitate to crush him.
11367. judithathome - 12/25/2013 6:04:00 PM So you think it's okay for him to offer Brazil "help" in exchange for asylum?
That's like the folks who rigged up and stole Target's credit lines offering "help" to the Russian mob in the form of all the info in exchange for a few million dollars.
Used to be when you took something illegally and asked for something in return it was called extortion. 11368. robertjayb - 12/25/2013 10:38:58 PM Wish I could link this
but would probably be futile:'
Some excerpts from AP Big Story (London dateline) re Snowden:
Snowden told the Washington Post he was satisfied because journalists have been able to tell the story of the U.S. government's collection of bulk Internet and phone records..."As soon as the journalists were able to work, everything that I had been trying to do was validated," Snowden told the Post. "Because, remember, I didn't want to change society. I wanted to give society a chance to determine if it should change itself."
(will be) speaking directly to the British public in a televised message that will be broadcast Wednesday as an alternative to the queen's annual Christmas speech.
In his U.K. message, Snowden calls modern surveillance more invasive than any envisioned by "1984" author George Orwell, saying that children today will grow up without knowing what it means to have an unrecorded or private moment.
"That's a problem because privacy matters, privacy is what allows us to determine who we are and who we want to be," he says.
The effects of Snowden's revelations have been evident in the courts, Congress, Silicon Valley and capitals around the world, where even U.S. allies have reacted angrily to reports of U.S. monitoring of their leaders' cellphone calls. Brazil and members of the European Union are considering ways to better protect their data and U.S. technology companies such as Google, Microsoft and Yahoo are looking at ways to block the collection of data by the government.
Snowden, now 30, said he is not being disloyal to the U.S. or to his former employer.
"I am not trying to bring down the NSA, I am working to improve the NSA," he said. "I am still working for the NSA right now. They are the only ones who don't realize it."
Misguided? Opinions vary. But to compare Snowden to credit card scammers is more than a bit much.
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