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1346. Jon Ferguson - 4/3/2001 8:53:24 AM Jay
If you'd like me to respond, let me know. Otherwise, I'm happy with letting our discussion end here. I really don't like to beat a dead horse.
All
re the proposed thread hosting guidelines
They sound great. I also favor Jay's addition.
Unfortunately, the Devil (as always) is in the details. Specifically, in this case, selective enforcement of said guidelines. Which has always been the problem around here.
If they are used to curb some of Cal and Stinky's excesses, great! However if they are only used to pick on folks like Auto, XTC (if he gets another thread) and Greer, they are less than useless and just exacerbate the current problem. 1347. CalGal - 4/3/2001 1:57:51 PM Do not be needlessly abusive of other posters.
I still worry about this one. No, not because everyone will be able to complain more about me. But because it will create a means for everyone to complain more about stuff that is basically normal, every day life in the Mote and that seems like it would create more hassle.
I think the text in the original "Don't make posts that are needlessly abusive" covers the same thing but it doesn't specify "other posters" in a way that makes people expect more protection than we generally provide around here.
Other than that, I think it spells out a few more things that we all take for granted but is just as well having detailed. 1348. Autodaffy - 4/3/2001 2:25:09 PM I object to the changes relating to owing an offending poster an explanation for deletions or moves. I know of no notion of "common decency" that establishes such a thing, and it would seem uncalled for in the case of name-calling, etc. Nor do I think it inevitable that "things can become ugly." If SOMEONE becomes ugly, they should be stopped.
This revision smells like an about face (the advice I asked for and received before taking on education was that no explanation was required) to mollify a favorite who has objected after calling the host an idiot and after having it pointed out to her that she was being intemperate beyond what had appeared in the thread previously.
Moreover, I believe that her objection to my hosting is based entirely on her differing from my opinions about the state of education, the effect of teacher's unions on education, etc. I urge you to read all her posts in education and in the suggestions thread this morning--both for accuracy and tenor. Her efforts on the issue of my hosting are entirely a product of her desire to see my opinions stiffled, and to a limited degree you are aiding her purpose in making a change that is clearly intended to send me a repressive message.
1349. vonKreedon - 4/3/2001 3:39:55 PM
I like the guidelines. I think that a host does owe it to the thread's constituents to be clear about the thread's parameters AND when/why a post has been moved/deleted. 1350. Slackjaw - 4/3/2001 3:49:34 PM I like the new hosting guidelines. Offering an explanation for deleted posts (at least the first couple times a member of a class of deletable posts by one person appears) is useful and may stick.
The other stuff, the informal "do your best" and "be consistent and transparent" parts, are also useful, and in the short run may cause hosts to give more thought to their actions. In the long run...I foresee having this conversation again (and not because the majority of hosts don't do a fine job, because they do). But no guidelines could stop that. 1351. Ms. No - 4/4/2001 5:31:27 AM Autodaffy,
Please don't jump to conclusions regarding the hosting parameters. They are not aimed at you specifically nor were they brought on by the protests of any specific poster. It's been one of those weird coincidental things that has nothing to do with causality.
To support your claim about your authority I'm copying in the specific text of one of my emails to you:
"you have full authority to delete and move posts. It's usually best to tell people why you've done so but the bottom line is that you don't really owe them an explanation. This will only cause problems with the moderators if you were to target certain posters unfairly."
You are correct that I clearly stated that it's usually best to explain your actions but not required. I can only mitigate my stance by saying that at the time I was thinking about those who most frequently get their posts moved or deleted and then spend hours and days trying to argue about whether or not their posts were really objectionable.
Unfortunately in trying to be rigid enough to keep delinquents in line I set up a situation in which it is all too easy to step on the toes of non-delinquents.
With all of that said and having looked over the Education thread I feel that you were not abusing your priveleges as host but that it would've caused less furor if you had warned first and then moved posts. 1352. wabbit - 4/4/2001 6:37:13 AM Sorry for not getting back sooner, I got home very late from work last night and have now just gotten home from work again (and I'm sure you're all so happy to know that).
I will add Jay's suggestion and repost in a bit.
MsIT, I don't know that it's possible to create hard and fast rules for behavior. It seems like the old argument about legislating morality. But if you can come up with a reworded version that you prefer, please post it so and everyone can make comments/contributions.
Cal,
I think the text in the original "Don't make posts that are needlessly abusive" covers the same thing but it doesn't specify "other posters" in a way that makes people expect more protection than we generally provide around here.
Frankly, I don't care how abusive people get of George W or Al Gore, hence the change, but I'm not married to it if people agree that it implies too much protection.
1353. arkymalarky - 4/4/2001 8:53:49 AM "...I'm not married to it if people agree that it implies too much protection."
I don't think it does. There's no reason people should feel like they can just unprovokedly slam someone repeatedly or dog them from thread to thread. It doesn't happen that much, but for people who don't tend to slap back they ought to at least feel they can reasonably avoid being intimidated and can enjoy being here.
In the Fray the constant hostilities that resulted from an initial set of conflicts and personality clashes and went on for months (years?) drained the entire forum at times. People who hated other posters, for whatever reason, would not let them post anything, no matter how innocuous, without diving in.
The statement gives a basis for dealing with such situations, though it may be redundant; I haven't read everything that closely. 1354. CalGal - 4/4/2001 8:58:27 AM Wabbit,
First, let me say that I think the work you've done on all this is great, and you know that I'm a nitpicky wonk, so take this for what it's worth.
The reason I like "needlessly abusive" alone:
1) it covers a situation when someone is doing something that I can't even possibly foresee, but is "abusive"--to the thread, the forum, the community, the world, whatever. For example, the reason I called for Ferguson's banning is because I think he is being needlessly abusive--even if it isn't directly to any one person.
2) To add "to other posters" could give the impression that it is there purely to protect everyone from meanness. And then you get into the whole hassle of defining mean. Leave out the specifics and it still covers posters, but they're only one protected class--the forum, the community, the world at large, the children, whatever, is included.
So the more generic statement covers posters still, if necessary, but doesn't specifically exist to protect posters.
I realize in advance this probably sounds stupid, but I always prefer rules to be broad, rather than narrow. Gives more room for maneuvering in all directions. 1355. arkymalarky - 4/4/2001 9:10:37 AM "So the more generic statement covers posters still, if necessary, but doesn't specifically exist to protect posters."
That makes sense. 1356. MsIvoryTower - 4/4/2001 9:25:25 AM For the record MsNo I didn't argue that Autodaffy had "abused" his privileges. I argued that the present lack of accountability on the part of hosts for their actions in deleting or moving posts encourages arbitrary and petty behavior.
These are not the same things in my book. The current rules encourage an atmosphere of arbitrariness. I disagree that hosts should be arbitrary. I disagree that they should have absolute control over the way discussions occur in their threads, and I disagree with this whole notion that they have to be bribed with the lure of personal power to step up to the task of hosting.
But then, I've been outweighed in this matter, so as far as I'm concerned, the issue is over. 1357. Jon Ferguson - 4/4/2001 1:31:30 PM Outweighed? Is that how things get decided around here? Well no wonder ... (g) 1358. MsIvoryTower - 4/4/2001 10:42:52 PM As I said in the regions above....
I would have said outvoted rather than outweighed, but it's been clearly stated that this place is not a democracy and thus voting doesn't matter.
I admit the term is merely an adequate substitute at best. 1359. wabbit - 4/7/2001 4:02:18 AM Proposed Thread Hosting GuidelinesThe primary duty is to set the tone of the thread and keep the discussion as focused as you can (or want). You are free to promote any level of civility you desire, but you should maintain a level of civility with the participants in your thread that is higher than what you are shooting for within the thread. The most successful threads are usually those which do not discourage points of view from any angle. As long as participants do not violate the Rules of Engagement, how far they are allowed to go is entirely up to you, but please try to be as even-handed as possible. You have the ability to move posts to a more appropriate thread, or delete posts if necessary. Please be very thoughtful and careful about exercising these options.
Clarify your ambitions for the thread. If you don't like personal abuse or sexual references or off-topic posts, say so at the start, and repeat it as necessary. Posters should not have to discover the hosts likes and dislikes though his or her deletion/move policy.
As a rule, a first-time violation should not result in the post being moved but in a reasonably polite explanation as to why it is objectionable.
To move or delete a post without comment violates common decency. If you must move or delete a post, please post a notice.
1360. wabbit - 4/7/2001 4:07:43 AM Possible reasons for deleting/moving posts:
- personal information revealed about someone other than the poster him/herself
- threats or harrassment of another poster
- pornography
- excessive off-topic posts
The first two are in the Rules of Engagement. The others are things to consider. You should be discreet and lenient in hosting. Most participants are pretty well-behaved and we don't want to be heavy-handed. Recognize that in the heat of a discussion, things can get ugly. Try not to take it personally.
Links to information at other websites may be posted in the butter sidebar. If you need help doing this, contact us with the link information. A particularly interesting discussion may also be posted in the News section of the homepage.
When the thread is ready to end, please put up an RIP tag. After three days, the thread can be placed into read-only mode and moved into the archives.
Most threads will run pretty well on their own if you are busy and can't spend much time there for a short period, though some threads require a good deal of attention. If you must be absent for any length of time, a new host can sometimes be found, or the thread can be retired. We realize that this is a volunteer operation and real life sometimes imposes constraints on cyber-life.
Enjoy your thread and thank you for hosting.1361. Jon Ferguson - 4/7/2001 10:16:37 AM Three comments:
1. Very good start.
2. A host's authority to explicitly ban a specific poster should be addressed. Either in the negative or in the affirmative.
3. These rules seem to give hosts the sole authority to determine when their thread should be RIPped. Is that a correct interpretation? I think that should also be clarified. 1362. Jon Ferguson - 4/7/2001 10:18:43 AM Typed too quickly. 'explicitly' probably works better in front of 'addressed' than in front of 'poster'. 1363. Jon Ferguson - 4/7/2001 10:20:39 AM Hmmm. Ever have one of those days? (g)
replace 'poster' with 'ban' in 1362.
Sorry for this mess. 1364. Jon Ferguson - 4/7/2001 10:58:31 AM Oh, one more thing.
I think we need a set of proposed Moderator/triumvirate guidelines. Dusty made a good start with his suspension guidelines in Suggestions.
It should incorporate something like the 'you should maintain a level of civility with the participants in your thread that is higher than what you are shooting for within the thread' component of the thread hosting guidelines. We could call it the 'Irv' clause.
Something like: 'Moderators should maintain a high level of civility with Mote participants. You are the goodwill ambassadors of the Mote and it is incumbent upon you to behave accordingly.'
Now, I know that you guys will need some time to adjust to this new guideline, but if you model yourself after my posting style, you should do okay. (g) 1365. wabbit - 4/7/2001 1:11:02 PM Jon, #'s 2 and 3 are both good points. Rewrite forthcoming.
Since you want a similar guideline for the moderators, and since you have made it abundantly clear several times over that we are incompetent on many levels, we would no doubt also fail in this, so feel free to write up a suggested guideline and post it here for comments.
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