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1350. Slackjaw - 4/3/2001 3:49:34 PM I like the new hosting guidelines. Offering an explanation for deleted posts (at least the first couple times a member of a class of deletable posts by one person appears) is useful and may stick.
The other stuff, the informal "do your best" and "be consistent and transparent" parts, are also useful, and in the short run may cause hosts to give more thought to their actions. In the long run...I foresee having this conversation again (and not because the majority of hosts don't do a fine job, because they do). But no guidelines could stop that. 1351. Ms. No - 4/4/2001 5:31:27 AM Autodaffy,
Please don't jump to conclusions regarding the hosting parameters. They are not aimed at you specifically nor were they brought on by the protests of any specific poster. It's been one of those weird coincidental things that has nothing to do with causality.
To support your claim about your authority I'm copying in the specific text of one of my emails to you:
"you have full authority to delete and move posts. It's usually best to tell people why you've done so but the bottom line is that you don't really owe them an explanation. This will only cause problems with the moderators if you were to target certain posters unfairly."
You are correct that I clearly stated that it's usually best to explain your actions but not required. I can only mitigate my stance by saying that at the time I was thinking about those who most frequently get their posts moved or deleted and then spend hours and days trying to argue about whether or not their posts were really objectionable.
Unfortunately in trying to be rigid enough to keep delinquents in line I set up a situation in which it is all too easy to step on the toes of non-delinquents.
With all of that said and having looked over the Education thread I feel that you were not abusing your priveleges as host but that it would've caused less furor if you had warned first and then moved posts. 1352. wabbit - 4/4/2001 6:37:13 AM Sorry for not getting back sooner, I got home very late from work last night and have now just gotten home from work again (and I'm sure you're all so happy to know that).
I will add Jay's suggestion and repost in a bit.
MsIT, I don't know that it's possible to create hard and fast rules for behavior. It seems like the old argument about legislating morality. But if you can come up with a reworded version that you prefer, please post it so and everyone can make comments/contributions.
Cal,
I think the text in the original "Don't make posts that are needlessly abusive" covers the same thing but it doesn't specify "other posters" in a way that makes people expect more protection than we generally provide around here.
Frankly, I don't care how abusive people get of George W or Al Gore, hence the change, but I'm not married to it if people agree that it implies too much protection.
1353. arkymalarky - 4/4/2001 8:53:49 AM "...I'm not married to it if people agree that it implies too much protection."
I don't think it does. There's no reason people should feel like they can just unprovokedly slam someone repeatedly or dog them from thread to thread. It doesn't happen that much, but for people who don't tend to slap back they ought to at least feel they can reasonably avoid being intimidated and can enjoy being here.
In the Fray the constant hostilities that resulted from an initial set of conflicts and personality clashes and went on for months (years?) drained the entire forum at times. People who hated other posters, for whatever reason, would not let them post anything, no matter how innocuous, without diving in.
The statement gives a basis for dealing with such situations, though it may be redundant; I haven't read everything that closely. 1354. CalGal - 4/4/2001 8:58:27 AM Wabbit,
First, let me say that I think the work you've done on all this is great, and you know that I'm a nitpicky wonk, so take this for what it's worth.
The reason I like "needlessly abusive" alone:
1) it covers a situation when someone is doing something that I can't even possibly foresee, but is "abusive"--to the thread, the forum, the community, the world, whatever. For example, the reason I called for Ferguson's banning is because I think he is being needlessly abusive--even if it isn't directly to any one person.
2) To add "to other posters" could give the impression that it is there purely to protect everyone from meanness. And then you get into the whole hassle of defining mean. Leave out the specifics and it still covers posters, but they're only one protected class--the forum, the community, the world at large, the children, whatever, is included.
So the more generic statement covers posters still, if necessary, but doesn't specifically exist to protect posters.
I realize in advance this probably sounds stupid, but I always prefer rules to be broad, rather than narrow. Gives more room for maneuvering in all directions. 1355. arkymalarky - 4/4/2001 9:10:37 AM "So the more generic statement covers posters still, if necessary, but doesn't specifically exist to protect posters."
That makes sense. 1356. MsIvoryTower - 4/4/2001 9:25:25 AM For the record MsNo I didn't argue that Autodaffy had "abused" his privileges. I argued that the present lack of accountability on the part of hosts for their actions in deleting or moving posts encourages arbitrary and petty behavior.
These are not the same things in my book. The current rules encourage an atmosphere of arbitrariness. I disagree that hosts should be arbitrary. I disagree that they should have absolute control over the way discussions occur in their threads, and I disagree with this whole notion that they have to be bribed with the lure of personal power to step up to the task of hosting.
But then, I've been outweighed in this matter, so as far as I'm concerned, the issue is over. 1357. Jon Ferguson - 4/4/2001 1:31:30 PM Outweighed? Is that how things get decided around here? Well no wonder ... (g) 1358. MsIvoryTower - 4/4/2001 10:42:52 PM As I said in the regions above....
I would have said outvoted rather than outweighed, but it's been clearly stated that this place is not a democracy and thus voting doesn't matter.
I admit the term is merely an adequate substitute at best. 1359. wabbit - 4/7/2001 4:02:18 AM Proposed Thread Hosting GuidelinesThe primary duty is to set the tone of the thread and keep the discussion as focused as you can (or want). You are free to promote any level of civility you desire, but you should maintain a level of civility with the participants in your thread that is higher than what you are shooting for within the thread. The most successful threads are usually those which do not discourage points of view from any angle. As long as participants do not violate the Rules of Engagement, how far they are allowed to go is entirely up to you, but please try to be as even-handed as possible. You have the ability to move posts to a more appropriate thread, or delete posts if necessary. Please be very thoughtful and careful about exercising these options.
Clarify your ambitions for the thread. If you don't like personal abuse or sexual references or off-topic posts, say so at the start, and repeat it as necessary. Posters should not have to discover the hosts likes and dislikes though his or her deletion/move policy.
As a rule, a first-time violation should not result in the post being moved but in a reasonably polite explanation as to why it is objectionable.
To move or delete a post without comment violates common decency. If you must move or delete a post, please post a notice.
1360. wabbit - 4/7/2001 4:07:43 AM Possible reasons for deleting/moving posts:
- personal information revealed about someone other than the poster him/herself
- threats or harrassment of another poster
- pornography
- excessive off-topic posts
The first two are in the Rules of Engagement. The others are things to consider. You should be discreet and lenient in hosting. Most participants are pretty well-behaved and we don't want to be heavy-handed. Recognize that in the heat of a discussion, things can get ugly. Try not to take it personally.
Links to information at other websites may be posted in the butter sidebar. If you need help doing this, contact us with the link information. A particularly interesting discussion may also be posted in the News section of the homepage.
When the thread is ready to end, please put up an RIP tag. After three days, the thread can be placed into read-only mode and moved into the archives.
Most threads will run pretty well on their own if you are busy and can't spend much time there for a short period, though some threads require a good deal of attention. If you must be absent for any length of time, a new host can sometimes be found, or the thread can be retired. We realize that this is a volunteer operation and real life sometimes imposes constraints on cyber-life.
Enjoy your thread and thank you for hosting.1361. Jon Ferguson - 4/7/2001 10:16:37 AM Three comments:
1. Very good start.
2. A host's authority to explicitly ban a specific poster should be addressed. Either in the negative or in the affirmative.
3. These rules seem to give hosts the sole authority to determine when their thread should be RIPped. Is that a correct interpretation? I think that should also be clarified. 1362. Jon Ferguson - 4/7/2001 10:18:43 AM Typed too quickly. 'explicitly' probably works better in front of 'addressed' than in front of 'poster'. 1363. Jon Ferguson - 4/7/2001 10:20:39 AM Hmmm. Ever have one of those days? (g)
replace 'poster' with 'ban' in 1362.
Sorry for this mess. 1364. Jon Ferguson - 4/7/2001 10:58:31 AM Oh, one more thing.
I think we need a set of proposed Moderator/triumvirate guidelines. Dusty made a good start with his suspension guidelines in Suggestions.
It should incorporate something like the 'you should maintain a level of civility with the participants in your thread that is higher than what you are shooting for within the thread' component of the thread hosting guidelines. We could call it the 'Irv' clause.
Something like: 'Moderators should maintain a high level of civility with Mote participants. You are the goodwill ambassadors of the Mote and it is incumbent upon you to behave accordingly.'
Now, I know that you guys will need some time to adjust to this new guideline, but if you model yourself after my posting style, you should do okay. (g) 1365. wabbit - 4/7/2001 1:11:02 PM Jon, #'s 2 and 3 are both good points. Rewrite forthcoming.
Since you want a similar guideline for the moderators, and since you have made it abundantly clear several times over that we are incompetent on many levels, we would no doubt also fail in this, so feel free to write up a suggested guideline and post it here for comments. 1366. Jon Ferguson - 4/8/2001 11:01:03 AM wabbit
...since you have made it abundantly clear several times over that we are incompetent on many levels...
Given that I've been banned twice without cause and most recently just over 24 hours after you said that I was not violating the RoE and would not be banned, I think I've shown remarkable restraint in my criticism of both you and the 2 other PTB, who each fully supported your most recent unjustified decision to ban me.
I don't wish to harp on this issue, but now that Cal has seemingly made it her mission to see me banned without cause for a third time, I think it warrants a brief comment:
I have difficulty understanding how Cal, of all people, can get you to buy into the 'Jon's hurting the Mote' argument when she is the most abusive poster around. I realize that she's not a moderator, but she is unquestionably a PTB, and her frequent recklessly abusive and destructive posts drive people away. If it's not a question of posting style, then what is it? Am I right to often? Am I brutally honest too often? Am I just too damn articulate? Or is it that I ego trip too much?
I have done nothing whatsoever that even remotely warrants so much as a warning since I returned and I'd like to think that you are capable of realizing this.
As far as moderator civility goes, do you agree that there's a problem (particularly with Pelle) or not?
If you don't agree that there's a problem, then there's not much point in me spending time drafting a proposed set of guidelines, is there? 1367. Jon Ferguson - 4/9/2001 12:11:32 AM I object to my imminent banning. Pelle should be removed as moderator forthwith.
Thanks. 1368. CalGal - 4/9/2001 12:16:03 AM I think I've shown remarkable restraint in my criticism of both you and the 2 other PTB, who each fully supported your most recent unjustified decision to ban me.
You're not capable of "remarkable restraint". You criticize regularly, despite the fact that the only reason you are allowed to stay is by their discretion. Your inability to understand how absurd your self-congratulation is in these circumstances is indication of that narcissism Pelle mentioned.
The decision to ban you is never unjustified. But in this case, you have spent all of your time bitching and moaning in Suggestions, or posting in other threads purely to create complaint fodder. That alone is worth it. The Mote doesn't have to tolerate people who want to hurt it.
I will continue to recommend that you be banned, and I hope the moderators decide to take action.
I agree that there is no point in your drafting guidelines. But given your inflated opinion of yourself, it seems as good a way to waste your time as any. So go ahead, take a year to draft the perfect guidelines. Devote your life to it. 1369. Lord Ferguson. - 4/9/2001 8:02:05 AM Cal
One has only to observe our conversations over the past week or so to see that I am indeed capable of 'remarkable restraint'.
Using your 'logic', nobody should be able to criticize anything because we are all here at the 'discretion' of the PTB. I don't share your worldview.
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