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1455. mgleason - 7/18/2001 7:09:13 AM Indiana,
To Pelle's undoubted relief, this is my last post on this matter.
Your post in Notices and Queries was by way of being a thrown gauntlet, the principle of not 'recognizing the Mote's jurisdiction' apparently taking precedence over the principle of not mischaracterizing the positions of others, and not using them to buttress your own position without their consent.
The e-mail you received from Ms. No identified Irv and myself by name, quoted from our letters to her, and stated very clearly the remedy we sought. Yet because we did not approach you directly, you would not rectify a situation in which you were clearly in the wrong. Indeed, you continue to defend your untenable position because we did not ask you in the appropriate manner. I can only imagine that in your mind, this would involve much obsequiousness and tugging of forelocks, assuming we had the audacity to ask it at all.
A very strange code, that, which places your ego above honor. 1456. Ms. No - 7/18/2001 7:29:08 AM Indy,
No I have not seen the actual mail. My name wasn't on it and it wasn't addressed to me, therefore it was not copied to me. Nor did I forward a copy of your email to Maria or Irving as it was not addressed to them.
I informed them at your request that you desired for them to contact you directly and privately but you completely undermined any of that by posting a public notice about the incident in N&Q.
The truth is that you and you alone are responsible for violating privacy. You have only yourself to blame for having been unwise enough to add their names without their consent and then when approached about it in a private manner to have climbed upon your clay-footed high-horse and started issuing decrees about what is and isn't private and how people with legitimate complaints against you should or shouldn't behave.
Your actions in this matter have been reprehensible and you full well know it. 1457. Ms. No - 7/18/2001 7:30:48 AM Arky,
I do think if that becomes the case that it should only be with a formal complaint and the act verified by at least one moderator,
Absolutely. I don't know that this ever will be the case, but certainly it would require more than an hysterical accusation. 1458. Indiana Jones - 7/18/2001 7:57:13 AM No I have not seen the actual mail.
Well, you certainly are free with your characterizations of something you haven't seen. Moreover, you mean to say neither Irv nor Maria sent you a copy of what they were complaining about and you interjected yourself into this without such a copy?
My name wasn't on it and it wasn't addressed to me, therefore it was not copied to me.
Right. Something strange, though, the notion that you ought not read it for those reasons, but you still should be brought in as arbiter without having read it.
Nor did I forward a copy of your email to Maria or Irving as it was not addressed to them.
Strange, the Ms. No Post Office works only way.
I informed them at your request that you desired for them to contact you directly and privately but you completely undermined any of that by posting a public notice about the incident in N&Q.
I made you aware of my intent at the time.
Me: "I'll post a suitably vague Notice so as to relieve you of having to continue in the role of Henry Kissinger."
You: "I'll let Maria and Irv know about your post in N&Q, but I know that Irv's public email address is available from the Cafe Link if you don't wish to wait....Regards, Christin" 1459. Indiana Jones - 7/18/2001 7:58:46 AM works only way = works only one way 1460. IrvingSnodgrass - 7/18/2001 10:52:28 AM I certainly don't think Indy's ill-advised e-mail was a breach of the RoE, or anything which needs a new rule. As I said in my very first post on the topic, it was a breach of Mote Ettiquette.
Indy's e-mail didn't say anything more than (erroneously) claiming that the names listed had posted support. The idea of being "signatories" came from Indy's post in the Mote before he sent the e-mail (Message # 1422).
Personally, I had hoped that Indy would admit he was in error, and apologize to any people whose names he used without authorization. But that is obviously never going to happen, so, for my part, I will be posting no more on this topic. 1461. PsychProf - 7/23/2001 4:37:09 AM It is clear, at least to me, that Indy, right or wrong, was backed against the wall here. I despise this kind of counterproductive confrontation, now Mote familiar and Mote normal. I hope we have not lost another Mote Poster. 1462. Indiana Jones - 7/24/2001 4:52:17 AM PP: Thanks for your words.
I am actually travelling right now and only able to check in sporadically. Taking a vacation from just about any activity now and then is generally a good idea and perspective-enhancing. 1463. mgleason - 7/24/2001 1:40:35 PM That, Prof, was a cheap shot. I take it you don't despise those. 1464. IrvingSnodgrass - 7/24/2001 1:59:22 PM PP:
There was no intention of backing Indy against any wall... both Maria and I tried to handle the misrepresentation of our positions quietly, without posting anything here in the Mote. It was Indy's choice to bring it into the open. I don't think there is anything counterproductive about trying to clear up a situation in which one's name and views are misrepresented. And I don't think trying to handle it quietly is confrontational.
I also think the issue has been cleared up, to everyone's satisfaction, including Indy's, and that no one holds any grudges over it. 1465. PsychProf - 7/24/2001 11:24:32 PM Good. 1466. PsychProf - 7/25/2001 11:47:04 PM My frustration with the loss of valued posters continues, and it now looks as if I have irrationally displaced this disappointment on two of my best friends here, Maria and Irv. Sorry guys. Mea Culpa. 1467. Indiana Jones - 7/28/2001 3:29:06 AM PP: Without necessarily agreeing that your recent posts indicate you've lost your rationality, I think it's better to be a little irrational out of good motives than bad. 1468. janjon - 8/10/2001 6:27:55 AM I don't know what words to use first - banal, shrill, silly, unctuous, over-inflated, ridiculous, pretentious - come to mind.
Get a little perspective, people. This is a chat room. Shit happens. Sometimes deliberately, mostly through more or less innocent fuckups. Life isn't perfect. Live with it.
When you boil it all down, this place consists of about 100 (?) more or less posters, almost all of whom have been here for a while (in other words, the place is static), all of whom should realize that their words of wisdom are really just being put out there for the most part to satisfy some sort of personal need for recognition or satisfaction at seeing them in print or, for some, some sort of need to feel part of a "community".
Forgive the rant - the above is mostly just a stream of consciousness. It just seems that so much energy is spent around here nitting and picking on nuances of rules or purported abuses of etiquette or whatever, that what I would think should be the larger goal of trying to make this place more diverse and attractive to more than just that said 100 or so posters gets lost. 1469. arkymalarky - 8/11/2001 3:58:40 AM That goal is about lost already, JanJon. If we couldn't manage to attract enough from TT to make a blip on our screen when they're scattering like roaches in the light to other sites right now, then what we are is all we'll ever be; and that would be ok, too, if the number of regular and long-time posters weren't steadily shrinking.
For myself, there are good friends and interesting people here whom I enjoy conversing and discussing issues with, and whose opinions and insights I enjoy reading. That's all. This place is no more or less to me than that, but that's a lot, especially when so much effort and generosity on the part of a few went into creating the site in the first place. Those few will decide when and if this place is no longer worth their time, and I can live with that. In fact, some of them have disappeared already or are extremely scarce.
In the meantime, though, I think it's important for people to speak up when they perceive that certain issues or actions are a threat to the site, whether their perceptions are correct or not. Having said that, I rarely do speak up, and like the others who are gone, I'll likely just move on quietly when it gets to the point that the irritation or boredom or even anger outweighs my enjoyment of the place. If people who were here long before I see when it's time for them to move on, why should I be any different?
Of course, there's also the elephant in the living room that will evidently never be addressed and will help speed the site's demise, in my humble opinion, but I don't feel like being the leader of that lost cause, either.
1470. janjon - 8/13/2001 2:07:22 AM very well stated, arky. Although I too enjoy the interchanges on various topics with some here, I don't share the same sort of "friendships" you have built (and have taken no steps to foster same). But, I can understand how that could be a very rewarding aspect growing out of a "forum" like this.
However, unlike a club or some other sort of venue where one can assert some sort of selectivity, the engine that runs places like this, namely cyberspace, is open to all. (Subject, of course, to the banning/suspension process, which has been engaged in around here for highly subjective and ultimately prissy reasons.) Thus, one must endure the "bad" to be able to enjoy the "good".
What I find to be most harmful around here doesn't really relate to the "bad" - it is the degree to which everything becomes repetitive. Posting becomes predictable, in terms of what kind of responses will be engendered and by whom. Put-downs, feigned (hopefully) outrage, supposed humor - all becomes like day following night.
A direct result of too few people. Period.
Not that I would have expected anyone to notice, but over the past few months I've been "away" for various sustained periods. Some of that relates to travel, but mostly it relates to ennui. And, I find that increasingly when away I quickly forget about this place.
Well, having stated what I perceive to be the fundamental problem, I have no easy answers. Except that it does seem to me to be very silly and ultimately very self-defeating to have this place seem to be ever-vigilant to BAN or SUSPEND. Oh, revealing personal information is one thing, but quirkiness, even nasty or "clever" quirkiness, is one of the elements missing here.
1471. arkymalarky - 8/13/2001 2:34:17 AM I'm glad you posted, and I essentially agree with you regarding the problem. In recent weeks, though, I've begun to believe we as a group aren't capable of a fix. For a long time I did, but when we moved here and looked to increase membership it just never happened. In fact the opposite occurred. Maybe it's my attitude that's changed, but that's not good, either, considering how long I've been here and supported the value of this site and group.
I have noticed when you were gone, and others too, and I always wonder if they're out for a while or for good, but I do know that the more posting and numbers of posters shrinks, the less there is to attract members back or to encourage new membership. It also, imo, causes certain elements of our core character and interactions to drive discussions in a way that further discourages diversity.
I've begun to think it's part of our collective personality, along with some liabilities others just aren't willing to endure--the rewards aren't enough for them, and I understand it. Sometimes they aren't enough for me and I've been here almost four years.
FWIW, people with your perspective and more removed nature are sorely needed here to provide a balance, but many who would have that approach and come in from the outside either spend too little time here to have much impact on the overall feel of the place, or decide they can get discussions that are just as engaging without all the baggage elsewhere.
Like you say, it's just too few people, and once it shrinks beyond a certain point, like anything else, it will not be revivable. IMO, it's very near that point, and I find it disconcerting, to say the least, that some of the site's most ardent supporters and regular posters, including myself, seem to be losing interest.
BTW,
I bet we could carry on a torrid affair in here and no one would be the wiser! (wink, wink) 1472. janjon - 8/13/2001 3:38:29 AM But if we did, we'd be leaving, um, fingerprints all over cyberspace for all time!
You are one of several who allude from time to time to what I guess I will call the good ol' days (in cyberspace time crunch terms). I wish I had been around during the time of the Fray to be able to have gotten the flavor firsthand. But, I've delved from time to time into the archives and it does seem clear that there was a diversity and corresponding vitality that this place does not currently evidence. Oh, it is quite clear that a number of the most interesting posters from then are still here. And, it may very well be that a lot of others are here under i.ds that I don't recognize. But, am I correct in thinking that posters like KurtMondaugen, Eliot 805, Coral Reef, Spudboy, Trialshark, Labajare, Resonance, Trouserpilot, Underwater Squids, TMachine, some whom I clearly would never have agreed with but who nevertheless added some diversity like Boomerjeff and ThomasD, and a few others whose posts caught my eye but whose names I don't come to mind either never came here or have now left? And there were a couple who I know were here for a time but now seem to be gone, such as Jade-whatever-the-rest-of-his/her-id was.
In a place as small as this, regardless of any individual merits or demerits that group had, posters of that diversity are sorely needed. Discussions will always have an ebb and flow, some will work and some won't, but to succeed this has to be a place where the dynamics don't become static. Different compositions of diverse posters - that's the ticket. 1473. arkymalarky - 8/13/2001 4:57:50 AM Janjon,
Excuse the length of this post, but your posts have stimulated the verbalization of thoughts that I've been formulating for awhile.
Of course the Fray had a magazine to attract people to the site in the first place, and that brought an influx of more diverse posters who also tended to come and go with much more frequency; and imo, Slate could have done much more to promote the Fray, but decided to take an opposite course and can it, but not before taking steps to ensure its insular nature (Irv could elaborate much more on that). It had some similar problems to the Mote, insularity being one toward the end in particular, and some very ugly infighting and divided camps, which made the successful establishment of the Mote seem sort of like the dawning of a new era to cheesy romantics like me.
Of the ids you mention, some are just busier than they used to be, others were not happy with one thing or another, and several with one poster or another. Two or three are still here under other ids. Recent disappearances which interest me are Wonkers, JJ, MsGreer, and VonK, among others.
1474. arkymalarky - 8/13/2001 5:00:51 AM (cont)
Divisiveness is very easy to create and very difficult to mend, and it's plagued this group since I've been part of it. The problem is that as more posters drop off the division becomes life-threatening, yet it continues, and the ones who sense it most seem to be at a loss as to what to do about it, while others, at least imo, are satisfied to continue to pretend it isn't there or isn't causing serious problems. Others are truly able to ignore it, which is great.
Divisiveness is an enemy of diversity, because no matter what their backgrounds, posters who participate very much find themselves either walking a tightrope between camps or falling off into one side or the other. It's hard for them to avoid, particularly in certain threads. Witness the most recent dustup. I have walked the tightrope myself until recently, and jumped off it based on my own perceptions of a trend and the belief that I really didn't have anything left to lose in the deal.
WRT bannings, we actually bat it around more than we actually do it. We've banned Cazart and JonFergusen, but although Rose is threatened he's not been banned, and only a handful of others have been suspended. Cal is the only other poster around whom any significant controversy over behavior has developed, and no one's entertained thoughts of banning or suspension; though I, for one, find her tendency to selectively attack people without provocation--and her sheer ubiquitousness which makes such attacks almost impossible to avoid--incredibly damaging and divisive to an already weakened forum.
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