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1466. PsychProf - 7/25/2001 11:47:04 PM My frustration with the loss of valued posters continues, and it now looks as if I have irrationally displaced this disappointment on two of my best friends here, Maria and Irv. Sorry guys. Mea Culpa. 1467. Indiana Jones - 7/28/2001 3:29:06 AM PP: Without necessarily agreeing that your recent posts indicate you've lost your rationality, I think it's better to be a little irrational out of good motives than bad. 1468. janjon - 8/10/2001 6:27:55 AM I don't know what words to use first - banal, shrill, silly, unctuous, over-inflated, ridiculous, pretentious - come to mind.
Get a little perspective, people. This is a chat room. Shit happens. Sometimes deliberately, mostly through more or less innocent fuckups. Life isn't perfect. Live with it.
When you boil it all down, this place consists of about 100 (?) more or less posters, almost all of whom have been here for a while (in other words, the place is static), all of whom should realize that their words of wisdom are really just being put out there for the most part to satisfy some sort of personal need for recognition or satisfaction at seeing them in print or, for some, some sort of need to feel part of a "community".
Forgive the rant - the above is mostly just a stream of consciousness. It just seems that so much energy is spent around here nitting and picking on nuances of rules or purported abuses of etiquette or whatever, that what I would think should be the larger goal of trying to make this place more diverse and attractive to more than just that said 100 or so posters gets lost. 1469. arkymalarky - 8/11/2001 3:58:40 AM That goal is about lost already, JanJon. If we couldn't manage to attract enough from TT to make a blip on our screen when they're scattering like roaches in the light to other sites right now, then what we are is all we'll ever be; and that would be ok, too, if the number of regular and long-time posters weren't steadily shrinking.
For myself, there are good friends and interesting people here whom I enjoy conversing and discussing issues with, and whose opinions and insights I enjoy reading. That's all. This place is no more or less to me than that, but that's a lot, especially when so much effort and generosity on the part of a few went into creating the site in the first place. Those few will decide when and if this place is no longer worth their time, and I can live with that. In fact, some of them have disappeared already or are extremely scarce.
In the meantime, though, I think it's important for people to speak up when they perceive that certain issues or actions are a threat to the site, whether their perceptions are correct or not. Having said that, I rarely do speak up, and like the others who are gone, I'll likely just move on quietly when it gets to the point that the irritation or boredom or even anger outweighs my enjoyment of the place. If people who were here long before I see when it's time for them to move on, why should I be any different?
Of course, there's also the elephant in the living room that will evidently never be addressed and will help speed the site's demise, in my humble opinion, but I don't feel like being the leader of that lost cause, either.
1470. janjon - 8/13/2001 2:07:22 AM very well stated, arky. Although I too enjoy the interchanges on various topics with some here, I don't share the same sort of "friendships" you have built (and have taken no steps to foster same). But, I can understand how that could be a very rewarding aspect growing out of a "forum" like this.
However, unlike a club or some other sort of venue where one can assert some sort of selectivity, the engine that runs places like this, namely cyberspace, is open to all. (Subject, of course, to the banning/suspension process, which has been engaged in around here for highly subjective and ultimately prissy reasons.) Thus, one must endure the "bad" to be able to enjoy the "good".
What I find to be most harmful around here doesn't really relate to the "bad" - it is the degree to which everything becomes repetitive. Posting becomes predictable, in terms of what kind of responses will be engendered and by whom. Put-downs, feigned (hopefully) outrage, supposed humor - all becomes like day following night.
A direct result of too few people. Period.
Not that I would have expected anyone to notice, but over the past few months I've been "away" for various sustained periods. Some of that relates to travel, but mostly it relates to ennui. And, I find that increasingly when away I quickly forget about this place.
Well, having stated what I perceive to be the fundamental problem, I have no easy answers. Except that it does seem to me to be very silly and ultimately very self-defeating to have this place seem to be ever-vigilant to BAN or SUSPEND. Oh, revealing personal information is one thing, but quirkiness, even nasty or "clever" quirkiness, is one of the elements missing here.
1471. arkymalarky - 8/13/2001 2:34:17 AM I'm glad you posted, and I essentially agree with you regarding the problem. In recent weeks, though, I've begun to believe we as a group aren't capable of a fix. For a long time I did, but when we moved here and looked to increase membership it just never happened. In fact the opposite occurred. Maybe it's my attitude that's changed, but that's not good, either, considering how long I've been here and supported the value of this site and group.
I have noticed when you were gone, and others too, and I always wonder if they're out for a while or for good, but I do know that the more posting and numbers of posters shrinks, the less there is to attract members back or to encourage new membership. It also, imo, causes certain elements of our core character and interactions to drive discussions in a way that further discourages diversity.
I've begun to think it's part of our collective personality, along with some liabilities others just aren't willing to endure--the rewards aren't enough for them, and I understand it. Sometimes they aren't enough for me and I've been here almost four years.
FWIW, people with your perspective and more removed nature are sorely needed here to provide a balance, but many who would have that approach and come in from the outside either spend too little time here to have much impact on the overall feel of the place, or decide they can get discussions that are just as engaging without all the baggage elsewhere.
Like you say, it's just too few people, and once it shrinks beyond a certain point, like anything else, it will not be revivable. IMO, it's very near that point, and I find it disconcerting, to say the least, that some of the site's most ardent supporters and regular posters, including myself, seem to be losing interest.
BTW,
I bet we could carry on a torrid affair in here and no one would be the wiser! (wink, wink) 1472. janjon - 8/13/2001 3:38:29 AM But if we did, we'd be leaving, um, fingerprints all over cyberspace for all time!
You are one of several who allude from time to time to what I guess I will call the good ol' days (in cyberspace time crunch terms). I wish I had been around during the time of the Fray to be able to have gotten the flavor firsthand. But, I've delved from time to time into the archives and it does seem clear that there was a diversity and corresponding vitality that this place does not currently evidence. Oh, it is quite clear that a number of the most interesting posters from then are still here. And, it may very well be that a lot of others are here under i.ds that I don't recognize. But, am I correct in thinking that posters like KurtMondaugen, Eliot 805, Coral Reef, Spudboy, Trialshark, Labajare, Resonance, Trouserpilot, Underwater Squids, TMachine, some whom I clearly would never have agreed with but who nevertheless added some diversity like Boomerjeff and ThomasD, and a few others whose posts caught my eye but whose names I don't come to mind either never came here or have now left? And there were a couple who I know were here for a time but now seem to be gone, such as Jade-whatever-the-rest-of-his/her-id was.
In a place as small as this, regardless of any individual merits or demerits that group had, posters of that diversity are sorely needed. Discussions will always have an ebb and flow, some will work and some won't, but to succeed this has to be a place where the dynamics don't become static. Different compositions of diverse posters - that's the ticket. 1473. arkymalarky - 8/13/2001 4:57:50 AM Janjon,
Excuse the length of this post, but your posts have stimulated the verbalization of thoughts that I've been formulating for awhile.
Of course the Fray had a magazine to attract people to the site in the first place, and that brought an influx of more diverse posters who also tended to come and go with much more frequency; and imo, Slate could have done much more to promote the Fray, but decided to take an opposite course and can it, but not before taking steps to ensure its insular nature (Irv could elaborate much more on that). It had some similar problems to the Mote, insularity being one toward the end in particular, and some very ugly infighting and divided camps, which made the successful establishment of the Mote seem sort of like the dawning of a new era to cheesy romantics like me.
Of the ids you mention, some are just busier than they used to be, others were not happy with one thing or another, and several with one poster or another. Two or three are still here under other ids. Recent disappearances which interest me are Wonkers, JJ, MsGreer, and VonK, among others.
1474. arkymalarky - 8/13/2001 5:00:51 AM (cont)
Divisiveness is very easy to create and very difficult to mend, and it's plagued this group since I've been part of it. The problem is that as more posters drop off the division becomes life-threatening, yet it continues, and the ones who sense it most seem to be at a loss as to what to do about it, while others, at least imo, are satisfied to continue to pretend it isn't there or isn't causing serious problems. Others are truly able to ignore it, which is great.
Divisiveness is an enemy of diversity, because no matter what their backgrounds, posters who participate very much find themselves either walking a tightrope between camps or falling off into one side or the other. It's hard for them to avoid, particularly in certain threads. Witness the most recent dustup. I have walked the tightrope myself until recently, and jumped off it based on my own perceptions of a trend and the belief that I really didn't have anything left to lose in the deal.
WRT bannings, we actually bat it around more than we actually do it. We've banned Cazart and JonFergusen, but although Rose is threatened he's not been banned, and only a handful of others have been suspended. Cal is the only other poster around whom any significant controversy over behavior has developed, and no one's entertained thoughts of banning or suspension; though I, for one, find her tendency to selectively attack people without provocation--and her sheer ubiquitousness which makes such attacks almost impossible to avoid--incredibly damaging and divisive to an already weakened forum.
1475. arkymalarky - 8/13/2001 5:01:10 AM Personally, I would rather banning or suspension just be done by the moderators--slap--with no discussion or suggestions from the Peanut Gallery, which only serves to contribute to our "discuss-it-to-death" syndrome. If I have a complaint regarding a bannable offense, it should be handled via email rather than letting the whole forum in on the discussion/decision. But that's just my opinion.
1476. janjon - 8/13/2001 5:28:45 AM well, I must admit that I hadn't realized that it indeed has only been two bannings. This perhaps is because so much talk/time/energy/focus has gone into discussions regarding the same. And, you do from time to time see various posters come out with an "off with his/her head", always "for the good of the forum" of course. Has a chilling effect. OTOH, doing things in a non-public way would have an even more chilling effect, IMO. Thus, to me, another example of Live With It - Its Cyberspace.
But, I gather that you find the banning/suspension aspects to be a minor part of the problem. I can agree with that. Diversity and numbers - that is the core issue. And, no question, much harder to develop when there isn't a "natural" road in, such as being an adjunct to a zine.
But, I can also agree with what I think you are saying about the damaging effects of pervasive and negative, cutting (as in personal attacks, not in opposing thoughts or ideas) tones. Attitudes to the effect that "I can say anything I want (as long as I'm on topic) and as often as I want" won't be tolerated by many for very long. Polite ignoring by some, fight back by others, leave for some. No problem, I guess, as long as those who do things that way and everyone else realize that that is the import. 1477. arkymalarky - 8/13/2001 5:49:12 AM Let me clarify a bit. I think the banning/suspension and reason should be publicly announced.
On the numbers--you've hit the nail on the head. It's crucial that we not lose long-standing and regular members when we have no real prospects of a significant number of new people, but that's exactly what I see happening. 1478. Indiana Jones - 8/13/2001 11:15:32 AM janjon and arky: I think it's too late.
I will probably continue to visit here because of the people I do like to read and because of a feeling of responsibility re the two threads I host, but any sense of optimism is gone. 1479. mgleason - 8/14/2001 4:25:41 AM I think we're being a little melodramatic. Other forums feature infighting, incestuous little groups, and patches of sheer boredom, and they still attract new blood.
We need to explore what people want, and then see if it's possible to deliver. For starters, this conversation should be featured more prominently, because I'll wager that most of us don't even know it's going on. 1480. CalGal - 8/14/2001 5:03:36 AM Definitely too melodramatic. As for JJ and MsG, Arky, JJ posted that he was away because he was busy and MsG isn't posting because she is starting law school. Are you saying you doubt this explanation?
Wonkers is always gone for months at a time and then comes back. vK is rich and travels a lot now, although I'm sure he's also in the "The Mote sucks because of CalGal" club.
Myself, I've not cared much about this place since June, when the most recent whining about me started. But I don't think the slowdown is more than tangentially related to the whining--I think no more than three people I can think of have actively left because they couldn't tolerate me even with their trusty support group bucking them up. It's slow in large part because it's always slow this time of year and yes, if something doesn't click again it could be a deadly slowness. I doubt it, myself--it will probably come back. Either way, I don't care as much as I used to.
If you want to revive a forum, the way to do it is to talk about the things you want to talk about. Introduce new topics, expect it to be slow at first, and see what happens.
I also think it would be fun if we could do some group activity--a book reading, a movie festival, something to that effect.
It's also time for our anniversary; it might be fun to send out another mailing if we have anything to announce. I haven't heard from Alistair; if he hasn't done anything with the new look maybe I'll give it a shot. 1481. mgleason - 8/14/2001 6:46:23 AM Those are good suggestions. I'm up for a reading (no tea-leaves, however), and there's always the Emmy Awards, too. 1482. arkymalarky - 8/14/2001 7:20:41 AM I'm not the melodramatic type. The dropoff without the new people coming in pretty much speaks for itself. There are no significant sources from which to draw new people in here, so I don't see that changing, and you don't revive anything without energy feeding into it.
A group activity would be good if it were coupled with an anniversary mailout to bring in enough people to keep it going well.
And don't flatter yourself, Cal. One statement was made about you and I meant it for simply what it was--no more. You needn't attempt to lather it up into the fount of the entire series of posts in here. 1483. CalGal - 8/14/2001 8:37:48 AM The Emmy awards don't usually generate enough interest--but they were very good last year, much better than the Oscars (in terms of entertainment value).
As far as attracting more people for group activities, I don't think it much matters whether we do or don't. If it's something that interests the people who are here, great. If it brings in others too, fine.
Arky, I wasn't flattering myself. You made more than one reference to things you've said before in regards to me. Besides, you didn't answer my question about JJ and MsG. Are you saying you don't believe them?
We have had slow periods before; last year at this time was particularly bad. Then it picked up. So your comment that it can't be fixed is innacurate. I don't know if it will pick up again, and as I said I'm getting to the point that I don't care--not because it hasn't been busy, but because I'm tired of giving a damn about people when a group of them bitch so incessantly.
In any event, the way to address bringing people back is by doing what I said--introduce topics you are interested in, suggest group activities that others might enjoy, and go from there. 1484. arkymalarky - 8/14/2001 8:56:11 AM My comment that there is no significant source from which to draw in new people is completely accurate. Please try to understand the basic concept that we need to bring in new people from the outside--that would be people who are not already reading us and wouldn't know jack squat what we were discussing and whether or not it was of interest. In addition, a mailout to try to prick the interest of those who have quit looking in, for whatever reason, might be helpful.
I have never been a bitcher about conditions in here. In fact, I've been an enthusiastic supporter of the forum from the beginning. I have posted my perception of what I have observed in recent weeks. You are free to disagree with my assessment, but your disagreement isn't good enough to make it invalid.
And yes my dear, you were, as usual, flattering yourself. The fact that 3/4 of your post was about you and what you think others think about you is proof enough of that without my bothering to point it out.
You made more than one reference to things you've said before in regards to me.
Where?
WRT JJ and MsGreer, I made a short list of regular posters who are no longer regular. Unlike you, apparently, I do not hang onto their every post and file away their reasons for being absent, or concern myself excessively about whether they were telling the truth. Yes, JJ and MsGreer said they were busy, but the fact remains that they were very regular and they're not any longer, and every loss of a regular poster, for whatever reason, hurts a forum this small.
1485. rubberducky - 8/15/2001 1:51:33 AM what we need to do is open up registration, people.
period.
this bit about people not getting (somewhat immediate) log-ins will be the death of this place. i like theMote and all, but would i wait days at a time for a log-in for a site with no content other than a poster forum? um, no.
i've said it before, give any and everyone provisional access until the gatekeeper can do whatever review needs to be done and give a pass/fail evaluation. it's that simple. that is the only thing that will facilitate new blood.
this has nothing to do with GJ or Diva wrt their gatekeeping abilities, but we are kidding ourselves if we think theMote is soooo important that we have to hamstring ourselves just to keep pests like Jon & caz out. frankly, given my druthers, i'd rather see both here causing a stink, because at least then there is something interesting to read and participate in.
enough already. imho, they've won a battle already in that we have a net loss in membership due to our over ... vigilance in this area.
i'd appreciate a moderator response as well as what other people think.
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