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17822. Ms. No - 12/14/2005 7:37:44 AM I'm swamped editing at the moment as well. I'm working on a piece by an author whose first language is not English. That said, his English is better than a lot of native speakers I've edited for, but it's still nerve-wracking. He has a lot of trouble with at, on, over, to, for, from etc. I've also noticed a tendency to put adjectives in weird order. Rather than saying a long white beard, he'll say a white long beard. So, it's a lot of technical work before I even get to plot and character and flow, but if I weren't so pressed for time lately I'd be enjoying it quite a bit.
17823. Magoseph - 12/14/2005 1:14:07 PM I have a lot in common with this author because I’m still having a lot of trouble with at, on, over, to, for, from etc. and the proper order of adjectives, but I have noticed that people who grew up bilingual usually do not.
Hello, Mac and Pelle! 17824. Magoseph - 12/14/2005 5:00:35 PM 
Bonjour, ici Paris!
17825. thoughtful - 12/14/2005 6:21:23 PM C'est tres jolie! 17826. Ms. No - 12/14/2005 6:34:19 PM Mags,
I was thinking about what small bit of French I still remember and trying to recall if I ever knew the difference between "on" and "over". I mean, yes, there's sur and plus de, but if one were to say "Jump over the table" in English, that doesn't really translate to "plus de table" in French, right? That would mean something else or nothing at all I'm guessing. And sur le table is another thing entirely.
So I can see how incredibly confusing it is. And how do you explain to someone that you get "in" a car, but "on" a bus and there's no easily determined reason for the difference? It's just something you have to know. 17827. PelleNilsson - 12/14/2005 7:11:47 PM We have a weekly radio program where linguists answer questions about oddities and other things in Swedish. The other week they talked about prepositions and the answer to the question "Is there any language in which prepositions are not a problem?" was "Yes, in languages which don't have them". And they noted, as you did, Ms No, that in many cases there are no rules or logical explanations for the current usage. 17828. Ms. No - 12/14/2005 7:21:03 PM Whew! Well, at least it's not just that there's a rule and I don't know it. 17829. Magoseph - 12/14/2005 7:35:29 PM Ms. No,
I still have a hard time figuring the difference between “in” and “on”. I used to ask the stupidest questions, for example: Is ‘on’ instead of ‘in’ used for a bus because the bus is bigger than the car, or is it because the bus can hold more people than a car does?.
As for “to jump over the table”, I think we can say. “Sauter au-dessus de la table” (or) “Sauter par-dessus la table”. “Sauter sur la table” is “To jump on the table”.
The Spanish prepositions “Por vs Para” are difficult for foreigners and it is somewhat embarrassing to a teacher to be corrected by someone who really can’t speak or write the language as well as he does. 17830. PelleNilsson - 12/14/2005 7:48:14 PM It strikes me, though, that languages can have rules that native speakers are unaware of. German is such. Contemplate the two cities Frankfurt am Main and Frankfurt an der Oder. To understand this you need to know several things.
First, that in German all rivers are feminine, except der Main, der Rhein und der Neckar, which are masculine.
Second, that German nouns have four forms, nominative, accusative, dative and genitive (I think the last three are called direct objective, indirect objective and possesive in English).
Third, that these forms are expressed through conjugation of the definite article, so we have der, den, dem, des Main depending on the context.
Fourth, that 'an' is one of a group of prepositions after which the noun takes on either the accusative or the dative form depending on whether the context implies a movement.
When you know all this you conclude that since Frankfurt sits on the Main without moving its name must be Frankfurt am (an+dem) Main, but if a ship sails down the river it must be "das Shiff fährt an den Main".
In the case of the other city it is die Oder with the conjugation pattern die, die, der, der.
Confusing? It was worse when one was 12 years old. But the point is that most Germans have no clue that this rule exists.
17831. thoughtful - 12/14/2005 8:05:34 PM in english it's direct object and indirect object. 17832. thoughtful - 12/14/2005 8:10:09 PM for native speakers, so much of languange is learned by what one hears that the rule becomes 'it sounds right to me' regardless of grammatical correctness.
Another area that makes no sense is the use of the article 'the'. Some people are in hospital or in the hospital...people may be at college or at the university, but rarely at the college...and the ever mysterious 'the Bronx' which is never ever 'Bronx'. 17833. Magoseph - 12/14/2005 8:22:20 PM First, that in German all rivers are feminine, except der Main, der Rhein und der Neckar, which are masculine.
Le Rhein and le Rhône are masculine too in French, but they are called “fleuves”, which means “large rivers”.
But the point is that most Germans have no clue that this rule exists.
Yes, but they rarely misuse the terms, unless maybe when German is a second language. 17834. Macnas - 12/14/2005 11:18:44 PM Now then, I'm just finished a long day, and I shan't darken my office door until next year.
The very best to everyone at the good old Mote, have a cracking Christmas, drink and eat until you're fit to burst, and rest assured that I'm doing the same.
See you in 2006! 17835. thoughtful - 12/14/2005 11:35:37 PM happy times mac and see you next year! 17836. Ms. No - 12/14/2005 11:51:18 PM Have a wonderful holiday, Mac! 17837. Ms. No - 12/15/2005 12:03:18 AM I've also noticed a tendency for this author to say "one" instead of "a" or "an" and I do find myself giving rather convoluted explanations that boil down to "I don't know why, but that's the way it is all the same."
I'm the second person to edit this piece. He'd gotten it published and received some negative feedback so he sought out another editor and found me. So, I'm re-editing and feeling bad for him that the first person he worked with short-changed him.
Speaking of which, I promised to get this back to him by this afternoon so I'd best be off! 17838. wonkers2 - 12/15/2005 1:40:35 AM Ms. No, is editing part of your regular job, or do you do it on the side? If you do it on the side, how do you get clients? Do you advertize, or just rely on word of mouth? (The idea of doing a bit of freelance editing has crossed my mind, but I've never gotten around to pursuing it.) 17839. alistairconnor - 12/15/2005 1:46:50 PM In the car, on the bus...
Probably historical reasons. e.g. a bus is descended from an earlier form of collective transport which was an open wagon with wooden benches, that you climbed up on.
Likewise, the first trains were open, so it was logical enough to get "on" a train.
People still laugh at me when I say "je suis monté sur le train" (I got on the train). (You mean, you climbed on the roof?) On monte "dans" le train in French.
I just got off the aeroplane from Madrid. I haven't a clue whether I was "on" the plane or "in" it, in Spanish.
17840. jayackroyd - 12/15/2005 5:16:28 PM [jexster shameless boasting mode]
A note I sent to Josh Marshall got posted onto his site, and then picked up by atrios and Kos
[/jexster shameless boasting mode]
17841. alistairconnor - 12/15/2005 5:27:23 PM oh what a lovely post Mago :
My diet is very tame and is a never-ending series of tofu, salmon, fresh fruit and vegetables, cooked cereals, yogurt, eggs and home cooked- breads. So, I enjoy looking at a big mess of gooey chocolate, “fruit confits”, and sinful pastry once in a while and so does Ms. No, dear Mac.
so it's sort of girl porn?
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