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22602. Ms. No - 9/12/2007 5:17:11 PM Jude,
What I can't figure out is why we ever made such a change. One of my professors says it started in the 60's when they slacked off on a focus on grammar and structure. I don't know how much of that I accept since I was certainly diagraming sentences in the 70's.....but I now don't recall if that was for my English class or my Latin class and right there you can see that I didn't have a standard education.
22603. prolph - 9/12/2007 9:08:35 PM thanks msno but my point was there were many teens
who can read and write and cary on a conversation
22604. concerned - 9/12/2007 9:14:34 PM It's astonishing to me that high school graduates can hardly carry on a conversation these days. It's demoralizing.
You're just not speaking their language:)
22605. arkymalarky - 9/13/2007 3:10:03 AM in 1930 a 4th grade education still produced a more literate and better spoken person than fully 80% of the students in California State Universities.
I don't disagree (don't know enough to), but it started with mandatory education through high school. As late as when I started teaching kids could drop out in 8th grade. The brainiacs generally weren't the ones taking that option. In addition, no attention was paid to the abysmal condition of black schools during segregation, and when integration in high school and colleges began, mostly in the early '70s, a huge gap that had been easy to ignore previously suddenly became impossible.
The top students in most any school perform at more advanced levels--and a higher percentage of them do so--than at any point in the past.
And a lot of people who lament the situation wrt literacy are weak in other areas like math and sciences, and many math and science people feel like those whose focus is in the liberal arts are below par, all as things become more compartamentalized and specialized in college. There's also a focus on different literature, and everyone has gaps in their reading or focus on different types of material. For the past five years, I did virtually no reading that wasn't non-fiction research or legal material. Education is now so broad and scatter-shot it's very hard to generalize about it any more. What we're neglecting most, imo, especially compared to other countries, is preparing students for skilled work. 22606. arkymalarky - 9/13/2007 3:12:38 AM Patsy's granddaughter is an excellent example of what kids are doing. And I'm particularly proud of AR, because we pay for students to take the AP test, and I read the other day that our pass rate has increased faster than any other state in the country. And it's not a cheap test, but more kids are interested in the courses, and even if they don't pass (most don't) they are SO much more prepared for college. 22607. Ms. No - 9/13/2007 5:24:38 AM Arx,
I'm with you 100% on our failure to train students for skilled trades. I like what I understand of the UK system --- you take a test at the end of whatever educational milestone and that determines whether you go for more academic education or to a trade school.
Nobody needs a BA to sell real estate or beome an insurance adjuster. It doesn't take a four year degree or even a two year AA to perform standard clerical work or even most office administration.
The trend now, of course, is that you can't even get some of the most rudimentary jobs without a BA. I have a problem with that for a couple of reasons not least of which is that it devalues a college education. Also, it shows a complete lack of understanding and evaluative process for most of the entry-level jobs being offered.
You don't need a degree in accounting to start as an AP/AR clerk. You don't need a degree in accounting to be a Full Charge Bookkeeper. What can't be learned on the job --- and I've yet to see what about any of that can't be since I did it --- can easily be taught in a couple of weekend seminars or in a single semester class at the local JC.
It has depressing effects on salary, as well. Employers are requiring degrees that they don't need, but they haven't adjusted starting salaries to reflect that they're now requiring a more highly trained work force. So the pool of applicants is working harder and paying more to achieve placement in positions that are not offering any compensation for their efforts.
Additionally, state universities are becoming degree factories. You have to have a degree to GET a job but most folks know you don't have to have a degree to DO the job and so it's of less and less importance to ensure that the hoardes of people now coming into the colleges are really getting the education that their diplomas say they are.
Or maybe I have an inflated idea of what university degrees used to really mean about the academic achievements of graduates.
I'm starting (starting??) to ramble as 9 o'clock hits and the last of the caffeine in my bloodstream gives up the ghost.
I guess I should've posted all this in the Slow Thread?
22608. Magoseph - 9/13/2007 8:49:12 AM I guess I should've posted all this in the Slow Thread?
No, Ms. No--please let's continue this conversation in this thread.
22609. thoughtful - 9/13/2007 2:52:47 PM My 2 cents.
The education you get in high school today is a shadow of what was available when my parents went to school. Mother was only a high schooler and managed to work in bookkeeping/accounting on and off her entire life. They taught it in high school.
When I was in high school, I took typing, shorthand, office machines, business english, etc. so I was very prepared to work in an office environment before I left high school. Today my high school doesn't even teach business courses at all. Just the other day I was lamenting about how my nephew, among others, lives with debt and no savings because he doesn't understand the power of compounding. He was never taught something so fundamental. No wonder people debt themselves into oblivion. Those issues were taught regularly when my folks went to school. They understood that not everyone would be heading to college, but even if they became a small business owner, they needed to understand interest payments.
I also think that businesses require college degrees for jobs that don't technically require them as a way of sorting the labor force in a couple of ways...college degree means the person was willing/able to commit the time and responsibility and effort to get the degree so it signals a higher level of commitment to work. Also, considering that high schoolers are graduating with an 8th grade reading level, you need to get someone with a college degree just to get someone who can read at the 12th grade level. (don't hold me to the exact grade levels...i'm just using this as a talking point).
See this for example.
Dolores Perin, a reading expert at Columbia University Teachers College, said that her work has indicated that the issue may start at the high school level. "There is a tremendous literacy problem among high school graduates that is not talked about," said Perin, who has been sitting in on high school classes as part of a teaching project. "It's a little bit depressing. The colleges are left holding the bag, trying to teach students who have challenges."
Literacy issues among high school graduates!!
And then what happens when the teachers can't teach. The cycle deteriorates. I remember an article many years back that said that the only people Baltimore schools could hire to teach were so ill prepared themselves that they required them to take remedial education classes in the evenings to bring them up to speed.
And employers struggle to offer training classes to get a work force up to the quality it needs to operate in a global environment because the education system isn't doing it for them.
22610. arkymalarky - 9/13/2007 10:39:11 PM The literacy problem has changed significantly, especially since the 1980s. Read an AP test and student responses, or even the NCLB-required essays. I never saw anything near that level of difficulty nor did I see that quality of writing in high school or college, nor when I first began teaching. If you expect students who wouldn't even have been students 20 years ago because of dropout laws to be at grade level, you will be disappointed, but top students are doing better than ever before. This is not to say they should go back to letting them drop out at age 14, but it's important to keep that fact in mind when considering the state of public education.
Much in the way of clerical training and other skills is lacking, but in our small district students learn MS Office and take desktop publishing as electives. Required courses have squeezed out options and fewer students take those electives, but those who do learn a lot.
When Dad started as a professor in 1971 he had a student who wrote a paper, part of which said "the champus kops the ar kool. al the do is drive aron an givee tickee." That guy got a college diploma, in the early '70s, even though he failed Dad's class. He would not have gotten out of high school today unless he was an identified special education student. 22611. Magoseph - 9/14/2007 4:50:10 PM ...but top students are doing better than ever before.
True and I think these students should go directly to university rather than to college like many around here do because they want to be with their friends who would be failing at university. 22612. Magoseph - 9/14/2007 5:20:33 PM I'm trying to wean myself cold-turkey from coffee, so I didn't buy any yesterday. Well, I'm on my way to town now, a raving maniac. How pathetic can one gets! 22613. judithathome - 9/14/2007 9:42:18 PM The same way I am giving up cigarettes...I am so furious that "the two of us giving up cigarettes" entails ME not smoking at home so Keoni won't smoke at home but him still smoking at work! 22614. judithathome - 9/14/2007 10:23:25 PM Jeez, just when I think maybe high school kids are doing okay, the girl next door came came home in tears and scared out of her mind because the rival school that they play in football tonight came over to her school yesterday and put those unremovable stickers all over cars that said "Heights Sucks Dick" so her classmates went to the rival school and wrote on their car windows "Heights Rules!"
In return today, a student from the rival school planted a PIPE BOMB in front of her school...everyone was evacuated and sent home and the bomb squad detonated the pipe bomb.
What the hell is going on with these kids? These are two of the premiere public schools in town...it's insane! 22615. judithathome - 9/15/2007 12:51:32 AM I have great news: Leslie is on his way to the rehab facility and has been cleared for 7 days of in-patient therapy by his insurance company. After that, they will evaluste his condition and go from there. 22616. judithathome - 9/15/2007 12:54:45 AM evaluAte. 22617. arkymalarky - 9/15/2007 1:37:10 AM At another school I worked in we got pictures for our annual of a rival team which vandalized the school--after they got caught. We got pictures of several poor cheerleaders sobbing as they worked to get the campus back in order. The pipebomb thing will ruin that kid for life.
Bob firmly belives there should be nothing in public schools but intramural sports.
GREAT news about Leslie! 22618. arkymalarky - 9/15/2007 1:43:12 AM At another school I worked in we got pictures for our annual of a rival team which vandalized the school--after they got caught. We got pictures of several poor cheerleaders sobbing as they worked to get the campus back in order. The pipebomb thing will ruin that kid for life.
Bob firmly belives there should be nothing in public schools but intramural sports.
GREAT news about Leslie! 22619. arkymalarky - 9/15/2007 1:45:53 AM Sorry about the double but I couldn't go forward or back.
I'm very disappointed in WildBlue. I was better off with dialup and a web accelerator for text stuff, and I just don't do that much video or audio online. and with WildBlue it doesn't always load anyway. And if there's even light rain it goes out. I wish I could use the blackberry as my modem, but reception's not quite consistent enough out here. 22620. arkymalarky - 9/15/2007 1:46:38 AM Sorry about the double but I couldn't go forward or back.
I'm very disappointed in WildBlue. I was better off with dialup and a web accelerator for text stuff, and I just don't do that much video or audio online. and with WildBlue it doesn't always load anyway. And if there's even light rain it goes out. I wish I could use the blackberry as my modem, but reception's not quite consistent enough out here.
This will probably double again. Sorry. 22621. Jenerator - 9/17/2007 2:00:14 AM I know I am a little late to the conversation, but just thought I'd add what my Superintendent says regarding the educational crisis of today. In a nutshell, times have changed and companies have changed. People are no longer looking for a large, unskilled workforce. Instead, companies are requiring people with advanced degrees and experience. The person who dropped out 30 years ago or who got his GED had better odds of finding an entry level job and rising through the ranks than today's dropout. Today, the person who drops out is perceived as ignorant and a quitter. Plus, companies aren't looking to fill a lot of low-level jobs, nor are they looking for careerists.
Why hire Joe Blow who quit school when one can hire someone with a bachelor's degree?
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