et al.
I appreciate everyone's comments.
I do need validation... and it's nice to get external validation... the problem is that I don't get any from my wife.
I've got 2 1/2 months before I can technically look. That has been my firm position all along. The problem is that I don't have anything firm up there yet. She's got something in the works that should come into play within the next few months. I think this is part of the stress for her is that it's not nailed down yet. The university here reneged on the position that essentially put us here. We've cobbled together a stopgap, but it's not a long-term solution and I told her immediately that it meant we won't stay. The position she's working on getting is willing to give us a little time to find myself a job so we wouldn't have had to move immediately.
The second problem is that she's going stir-crazy in the house and is not meeting people she likes (not trying hard if you ask me, but that's another issue). Recently we had a health issue pop up that is very hard for her to deal with and has added to the stress and frustration of being here. She's at the end of her rope. So the plan about biding our time is pretty much out the window and as soon as she can act on this new job she's going to.
Which is fine. I can handle being apart. I'll just stay here until the house is sold or I get a new job and just go up there. Whatever.
I guess this is what rubs me the wrong way. It's not like I'm not trying or not making sacrifices or resisting leaving here in any way. I just wish she'd give me some credit. I really don't need the daily updates about how much it sucks here. It sucks here already. We're working on leaving... why keep harping on it?
24246. iiibbb - 7/21/2008 5:18:14 PM
We did move here for my career. The first job is the hardest to get... so I took it. Not only that it is still my firm belief that this job opens doors to the Northeast (my biggest worry is that pulling the cord too early they may not have opened enough to help... there is no way to tell. I've been productive here, but I haven't gotten funding on my own either... I've just been getting some papers published).
It's true that I didn't force her... but I perhaps didn't listen well enough.. nor her to me. That's a young marriage for you. Again... I wish she'd give me a little credit for the things that I'm doing right, rather than belaboring what got us here. There is still a lot of disagreement about her role in this (by not explicitly saying no when she could have). Occasionally she'll admit (usually when describing the situation to outsiders) that this was something I had to do... but when she's upset, all I get is grief.
It is very frustrating because this hasn't been easy on me. My own job hasn't been quite what I'd like it to be. I've told her the way this has all played out hasn't been easy on me and I've been depressed too. I've told her I don't want to stay.
After that you'd think we'd just put it behind us, but it seems like she can't sometimes and it all comes right back up the drain. I have trouble dealing with the "dealing with it"-"not dealing with it" swings. I also get frustrated with the complete lack of engagement of this problem. She complains about not having friends, but won't go out and meet people. She complains about other things, but doesn't DO anything constructive to mitigate them until we have a chance to leave. It is almost childish.
I'll say this much. Once we get out of here... for the rest of my life if she starts to complain about something I'll be able to say "At least we're not in XXX".
24247. iiibbb - 7/21/2008 5:18:34 PM
What keeps me going is that as long as I can get a job in the NE all of this will be worth it. I'm really into the idea of going there. I'll be close to my family as well as hers. She'll be happier. The rub is getting me a job, because in order to afford living there I need to be working, and I really would prefer to be doing something that uses my degree. If I were dealing with more certainty in that department all of this other stuff would be cake.
P.S. I've offered to go to counseling, but her response is essentially that she's happy with me and it's basically all of this other stuff that's going on. My only complaint about her is that she doesn't like to talk about it... or if she is talking about it it's only to be negative about it... there is no forward thinking. Of course I know it's all because of the depression she's going through so I try to cut her slack. The only thing that makes it hard for me is that there are so few outlets for me to talk about it because she's not a very effective confidant at the moment.
24248. arkymalarky - 7/21/2008 7:58:21 PM
I've offered to go to counseling, but her response is essentially that she's happy with me and it's basically all of this other stuff that's going on.
That was what I got most out of counseling that I really wasn't there for: "all the other stuff." And again, I began by myself, not for marriage counseling. I was about to go ape after my school closed and Bob was no help because he hated his job so much and we had a small child. I was in a panic and he was miserable and we were no help to each other. The counselor recommended I bring Bob after a few sessions just with me. It just helped us step outside and get some perspective. In fact, now that I think about it, we never got joint counseling about our relationship except for the first session, which as I recall was basically a "what one thing bugs the hell out of you about this person that you two need to address, and how do we address it." That was mostly helpful in how we understood each other's personalities. After that, it was about determining where we were and where we wanted to be job-wise and in our personal--not so much married--lives. Very practical stuff.
When you're unhappy and stressed your brain gets in ruts it's hard to see over. For me, personally, the most valuable thing I learned (and I've had to relearn it several times the hard way, since) is to respect what stresses me and how I react to it, and what will tip me from stress to pure misery. Without counseling it's easy to wallow in it until it takes over completely, which is a scary feeling. With counseling I felt like I regained some control over where I was going. And if I'm under extreme stress I won't hesitate to use counseling and/or temporary medicine until I can get past it.
24249. iiibbb - 7/21/2008 8:41:28 PM
I've still got perspective. It's just about the only thing keeping me sane. I certainly wish I had a better read on my job prospects up north, but we're going so there's not a whole lot I can do about it.
I just wish she had more perspective, but she's so tied up in knots with depression it's impossible most of the time. She can't talk to me about it rationally 98% of the time... she doesn't talk to other people about it... and she doesn't want to try to either. I think she's deathly scared that if she lets us get comfortable we won't leave.
All I can really do is hope that this job she's got lined up totally pans out. It hinges on one thing happening (which is probable, but not 100%)... after that we'll have something to make decisions from.
24250. thoughtful - 7/21/2008 11:37:07 PM
isbs, i'm sorry you're still struggling with all of this.
I've offered to go to counseling, but her response is essentially that she's happy with me and it's basically all of this other stuff that's going on.
I would offer 2 points on this: 1) she may be happy with you, but her behavior is damaging your relationship and that's not acceptable, for either of you; 2) she won't go, fine. You go. You can either gain some perspective on the situation or at least on her behavior, and by your going, you may encourage her to join you.
Of course I know it's all because of the depression she's going through so I try to cut her slack.
All the more reason she should go for counseling and probably a good part of the reason why she won't go. Depressed people are often incapable of helping themselves. You mentioned a health issue which i suspect is what she doesn't want you to talk about, but all the more reason why she needs to discuss it with someone, preferably not you. (because of all the other emotional baggage already in the relationship). If she's not capable of helping herself, then you'll have to do what you can to help her. Otherwise, this move thing may all just be an excuse and when you get to NE, you'll still be dealing with the same issue, only at a different location. In the meantime, the things said and done now without resolution are damaging and can be hurtful. That will necessarily come with you unless you can find a resolution.
Finally, I suggest, if you haven't, that you put your foot down. It sounds to me like you are bending over backward to try to appease her and her emotional state and instead she's wallowing in it and taking full advantage of your vulnerability which is leading to both of you feeling even worse...and, if you're like the rest of us, building resentment toward her for this. I think there's room for tough love here. Tell her what you will and will not put up with. Tell her that you both are doing what you can to get out of this, but it will only happen with time. Time that is better spent dealing with the situation instead of wounding each other. You need to take over with some calm assertiveness and not 'reward' her bad behavior (i know it's all my fault hon, i'm so sorry, but there's nothing i can do....) but actively deal with it (dear, we have discussed all this, we know what we can and can't do, and only time will resolve this issue. i can't be going round and round with this any longer, and it's not helpful to you to do it either. we need to focus on positive changes we can make now.... get her to agree to stop the harping and then consistently reminder her when she starts up again and put a gentle but firm end to it.)
24251. thoughtful - 7/21/2008 11:39:22 PM
I remember growing up with my MIL having lost her sight and my FIL treating her in a way that most outsiders would've seen as cruel...forcing her to do things for herself, watching her struggle and not moving to help her. Instead he did her the biggest favor of all, letting her learn that she could do far more than she ever thought she could and never allowing her a moment of self-pity for her situation. As a result she was able to live far more independently than many in a similar situation, and she, and we, were proud of all her accomplishments despite her handicap.
There's a lot to be said for tough love.
24252. thoughtful - 7/21/2008 11:40:59 PM
I remember growing up with my MIL having lost her sight and my FIL treating her in a way that most outsiders would've seen as cruel...forcing her to do things for herself, watching her struggle and not moving to help her. Instead he did her the biggest favor of all, letting her learn that she could do far more than she ever thought she could and never allowing her a moment of self-pity for her situation. As a result she was able to live far more independently than many in a similar situation, and she, and we, were proud of all her accomplishments despite her handicap.
There's a lot to be said for tough love.
24253. thoughtful - 7/21/2008 11:42:36 PM
Mind you isbs, (disclaimer here) that I am only basing my advice on what you've told me about the situation...I don't know the whole story and am not there. I don't know what you aren't telling me or her perspective.
But given what you've said, I'm trying to reflect it back to you and give some suggestions that will maybe somehow resonate and give you something useful to bring to the situation.
Hang tough.
24254. iiibbb - 7/22/2008 12:02:11 AM
Opinions are appreciated.
I've tried putting my foot down. Like I've said in the past I've burned up so much marital capitol engineering this move in the first place that "putting my foot down" usually invokes baggage that isn't the same.
Also, I want her out of here. While it would be nice if she would deal with it a little bit, the basic fact is that her job situation is not working out the way it needs to be working out. Based on that alone we're leaving. She just wants out like, yesterday.
I won't bend like this in the future... it's just the unusual combination of circumstances that prevent me from doing it here.
I actually do believe that moving North would solve some of the problems... and certainly would assist in dealing with the others... which is why I do want to go along with it. However, I can only move things along so fast and I can only work with what I have in hand job-wise.
It would be nice for her to go to counseling. I've breeched the subject many times, but to no avail so far.
24255. arkymalarky - 7/22/2008 12:43:56 AM
Thoughtful's right about the depression. I was miserable, but I wasn't depressed, so I wanted to go to counseling. Tread water to the move. Y'all will get there, and then you will have a better view of the rest of it. You say she's looking at a job change within a few months. Can she start planning the move now? Networking, looking at places to live, planning a reunite with her family, etc? I spent the last two years Bob was in school, while we were living like church mice, planning my house. It was very theraputic.
24256. iiibbb - 7/22/2008 12:58:08 AM
That's one thing I've tried to encourage. I've told her that I don't like talking about how it sucks there; I'd rather talk about the advantages of New England. I pretty much won't respond to her when she's complaining; following the principle of "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything."
We should find out about her position by October... when I need to start looking anyway.
I've been depressed before, so I know what's going on for her. What I can't relate to is the complete disengagement. I've always found a way to tread water until I got to a better place. She doesn't. She spends too much energy recounting the "mistakes" that got us there... which is wasted energy... but her family does it... and fruit don't fall far from a tree.
24257. iiibbb - 7/22/2008 12:58:50 AM
And you should all go ooh and ahh at my table in "the good life".
24258. arkymalarky - 7/22/2008 1:18:24 AM
Oh, I did and I loved it! I read Thoughtful and Alistair's replies, and it does look beautiful! I love oak, too. I was thinking when I looked at that about how much good wood there is around here, and a couple of Bob's friends have made furniture, but neither he nor I are handy with wood or saws.
There was a guy in this area who was internationally known for his marimbas and he used rosewood. He moved his business and either sold or gave a bunch of it to a friend of Bob's. It was absolutely gorgeous wood, but in all kinds of odd shapes, some blocks, some slats, some rounded on the bottom and flat on top, etc. I got so sick of Bob and his buddies talking about how great that wood was and what all could be done with it--all over about five or six years, during which not a single piece was used for anything--that I finally grabbed three blocks and some glue and made a napkin holder in about five minutes.
Another friend of Bob's finally took most of it, after we had it a while (that's how things work around here; things make a circle around friends until they get to the LAST FRIEND who may or may not use it), and he used it for accents for some beautiful furniture he and another friend made. I'll post a picture of a bench he made us when I get set up to post pictures again. Handmade hardwood furniture is a great skill, and will last generations.
24259. Ms. No - 7/22/2008 7:04:56 AM
i3b3,
Depression sucks and I know how debilitating it can be. That's why they have therapy and medication. The inertia, the inability to take action even when you know what you should be doing really is one of the symptoms most easily treated with psychotropics. The vicious cycle is that the knowing and not doing increases the self-flagellation which increases the depression which increases the inertia etc. etc.
Many (most?) people are, at best, reluctant to take drugs for depression. It's a tough hurdle to overcome, but the truth is that most people who are prescribed don't have to take them for long. It's generally just a tool to help a body through a particularly tough time. Knowing that psychotropics aren't a rest-of-your-life kind of thing helps a lot of people open themselves to the idea of taking meds for a specific time.
A couple of years ago I was dealing with some incredibly difficult issues in my family life. The least of it was waking up sobbing most nights. There was also very little I could do to take positive action so I had a lot of real worry and no way to combat it. I started having panic attacks, but worse were what I refer to as sudden-random-doom attacks. I'd be driving along and suddenly just know that my closest family members had been killed in a car accident, or that my house had burned down or my dog would be dead when I got home or that I'd fall on a curb and knock my teeth out or I'd end up bankrupt and homeless. All the while I was having these thoughts I knew they were irrational, but my brain was stuck in this obsessive-compulsive loop that I couldn't break free of.
I was seeing a therapist at the time and when I told him about the obsessive thought patterns that were ambushing me with increasing frequency he said "What if I told you there was a tiny little pill that could make all of that go away?"
I thought he was asking a rhetorical question, but it turns out he really was talking about a pill smaller than a Tic-Tac. I only ended up taking it for about a week or ten days and I almost immediately got results. I'd still get the horrid pop-up thoughts, but I could actually stop them nearly immediately. The drug helped my rational brain do its business. After I felt better I stopped taking them and a couple of times I got stressed and had to go back on them for a day or two, but it was a pretty brief episode.
Anyway, the point of all that is that medication might help your wife break the cycle she's in. You mention that a fair amount of negative dwelling is a gift from her family dynamic, but even so, it's possible that she could get a handle on that and scale back if she had a bit of a boost.
Best of luck, man. We're "ear" for you.
24260. iiibbb - 7/22/2008 12:49:17 PM
She won't do meds for a few reasons. She's pretty obsessive about chemicals... has been since before we married.
The episodes that get me frustrated, are indeed episodes. There are times when she's dealing ok enough... at least ok enough to refrain from unprovoked commentary.
I think the "little pill" is getting a job elsewhere. Like I said... it is a problem that she is too isolated here. At best she has a few acquaintances, but no one she has made friends with. It's a problem not entirely of her making... only somewhat.
All the halvesies is part of the problem too because one half can be addressed while the other is ignored. Hard to have a long enough conversation that stays sane enough to explore.
She could use therapy... but she doesn't want it.
24261. iiibbb - 7/22/2008 12:50:46 PM
Some of the health issues she just doesn't want to talk about to anyone. She only talks about them long enough to me to let me know what the problem is, but she can't go further than that. The mess piled onto the mess makes it hard anyway.
24262. thoughtful - 7/22/2008 1:52:34 PM
Isbs, you keep making excuses for her and those excuses involve blaming yourself...I think that's why you allow it. However, the fact that you feel responsible is no excuse for letting her get mired in the past or taking you there with her. Remember you did make the choice for good reason and you didn't do it to sabotage her, but to do what you thought would be best in the long run. Stop feeling guilty about it.
Putting your foot down may have put it more strongly than what I was really suggesting...it's the calm assertive approach...no anger, but consistent calm disciplined approach to limiting the bad stuff. Pick a phrase and then repeat as often as necessary until it stops. This last technique was one I learned in, of all places, weight watchers! For dealing with the evil relative who purposely tries to sabotage your dieting efforts by pushing food on you. The response is an exact phrase that gets repeated each time. After a few tries, they start looking like idiots for not getting it the first time and then they stop trying. A phrase that works to end the conversation in our house is "Got it."
It's really an "accept the things I cannot change, change the things I can" situation at this point. So the dwelling on all of this is damaging to both of you, and lots of damage can be done between now and October. That's why it's important to deal with it. If she won't go to counseling, then YOU go...at the very least you'll have a safe place to vent and you may learn some new tools, new approaches that will improve the situation for both of you, as well as be a role model for her attendance as well.
Also, re depression, there is a lot of evidence that regular exercise, especially walking or running, that involves consistent repetitive patterns of motion are as effective as meds for fighting depression. If she won't do drugs, will she do exercise? Can she exercise outside? or join a gym? That also holds out the possibility for her to meet people with similar interests...
24263. arkymalarky - 7/22/2008 4:04:19 PM
Also, people talk about how friendly the south is, and in a casual sort of way, in stores, etc, it's true. Getting involved in friendships and socializing, though, can be very difficult. People tend to be insular and cliquish. The college town I grew up in was like that, and my dentist, who moved in from Louisiana, even asked me about it during an exam once. He and his wife were having a terrible time developing a social life. He has since gotten into a Christian motorcycle club and now has a braid halfway down his back, so I guess he found his social niche. Work, church, and family are the three main ways people socialize in the South. If there is a synagogue nearby, even if your wife doesn't normally go, or a community group to join--it's probably too late for that now if y'all are leaving in the fall, but it might help begin a diversion, or like Thoughtful suggested, a gym. If you bought a membership for her, would she go? They have exercise classes in most gyms, and those are a great way to interact without creating social obligations.
24264. Wombat - 7/29/2008 3:52:37 PM
Grind up Prozac in her applesauce! (that's a joke, son.)
