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24749. thoughtful - 12/9/2008 12:57:02 AM jj, claims for unemployment insurance are above the peak in the last recession. people aren't scared because of what the media is saying. people are in fact losing their houses and their jobs. that's far more influential than what the media says. after all, how many americans even watch the evening news? credit markets are frozen and credit standards are tightening. that's far weightier on american's pocket books than what some talking head says somewhere.
this business that people are such irrational media-driven boobs is a real goper idea. imo it just reflects the fact that the average goper views the average american as sheep. i find that insulting. 24750. arkymalarky - 12/9/2008 1:43:49 AM On the show last night Mt View was 3rd on the list of 10, which surprised me. But I've never been there at Christmas. Bro plays with a family folk band at their dinner theater and that's who was shown. He was shown a little. The woman who talked most is a long-time good friend in the family band. I don't know whose house he was playing in--not his. My sil and niece were on for a second, too. 24751. arkymalarky - 12/9/2008 4:26:48 AM On the show last night Mt View was 3rd on the list of 10, which surprised me. But I've never been there at Christmas. Bro plays with a family folk band at their dinner theater and that's who was shown. He was shown a little. The woman who talked most is a long-time good friend in the family band. I don't know whose house he was playing in--not his. My sil and niece were on for a second, too. 24752. arkymalarky - 12/9/2008 4:30:06 AM I will never be a multitasker. 24753. JJBiener - 12/9/2008 6:08:24 AM Thoughtful - "things are bad in reality and state of mind is reflecting it"
The question is: are things in reality really as bad as we are being told.
"he said his business had dropped by half in three weeks. That's how fast what happened in Sept was reflected by interstate traffic."
This is my point. Do you believe half of his customers were personally affected by what happened in Sept or were they reacting to what they saw on the news or heard around the water cooler.
"businesses are now unable to borrow so they can ride this thing out."
I didn't address this in my article, but believe this is another media-driven crisis.
"claims for unemployment insurance are above the peak in the last recession"
The last recession was very mild compared to past recessions. If you remember, it wasn't portrayed that way, but historically it was barely a blip. Current claims are still mild compared to previous recessions.
"people are in fact losing their houses and their jobs"
Think about how you know this. You know this because you saw it on TV or read about it on the Internet or in the paper. I don't know about you, but I don't anyone who has lost their home. I know a few people who were laid off, but most of the people I know weren't. I believe this is true for most people.
"this business that people are such irrational media-driven boobs is a real goper idea."
Actually, I am saying the exact opposite. People are making rational decisions, but it is based on misleading information.
We are a country of 300 million people. The only way we know what is going on is through the mass media. It doesn't matter if a person watches the TV news or not. It filters out into the culture and it is unavoidable.
Let's look at two possible ways of reporting the same news.
"Skittish employers slashed 533,000 jobs in November, the most in 34 years, catapulting the unemployment rate to 6.7 percent, dramatic proof the country is careening deeper into recession."
Compared to:
"Employers were forced to eliminate 533,000 jobs in November causing the unemployment rate to rise from 6.5 percent to 6.7 percent. While this represent a significant loss of jobs, unemployment remains at historically low levels compared to previous recessions."
Are you going to tell me that the average, rational person reading these two reports would not have two very different responses? Repeat this thousands of times over a period of months and explain to me how this doesn't have a significant impact on how people act.
24754. Ms. No - 12/9/2008 7:10:52 AM JJ,
I agree with you in part ---- I think our media is more sensational now than it has ever been. We don't have news, we have entertainment --- we punch up our news to make it more exciting so it can compete with CSI and Batman.
At the same time, I've personally witnessed a rather interesting fallout of home forclosures: displaced pets.
I'm a volunteer at the SPCA and we've had quite an increase in the number of animals turned over to us because families have had to move out of their homes and into apartments where pets are not allowed.
Certainly it's not all our pets or even half, but on a floor of 25-30 large dogs --- five months ago it was usually 18-23 --- we now regularly have five or six who are there because of home foreclosures. 24755. alistairconnor - 12/9/2008 1:19:07 PM Five or six foreclosed dogs : that's an interesting hybrid of anecdote and statistic!
JJ : I have another point of view about the US recession.
The fact is, US households have had, in aggregate, over the past few years, a zero or negative savings rate.
Bearing in mind that a large proportion of people have a positive savings rate, that means that a large proportion have had a negative savings rate.
What happens in a recession or crisis? Instinctively, people start saving for when it gets worse. The modern version of this is : people stop getting themselves deeper in hock. Voluntarily or not.
Add to that a large class of people who have been murdered on the stock market, and now need either to reduce their outgoings or save for their retirement.
The result is the same : a drop in discretionary consumption. The fact that the drop is so rapid and so radical is, of course, in large part psychological : but this is in fact a rational response on the part of people who realise that they, like the economy, have been living in a bubble. 24756. thoughtful - 12/9/2008 4:05:39 PM jj, the past recession was mild compared to others, but not in terms of jobs lost. In fact it was called the "job-loss" recovery because jobs continued to shrink even after the economy recovered.
I do not need news media to tell me how bad things are. I am an economist and I look at the data for a living. For example, there has been a loss in household wealth of $7.6 trillion since the 3rd qtr of 2007. These people who can't sell their houses, can't get credit, and have seen their savings dwindle, are they just suffering from cnn overload?
There is a record 1.35 million homes in foreclosure. Do you suppose there's some sort of viral disease that has caused people to simultaneously choose to stop paying their mortgages?
Half a million people applied for unemployment insurance last week. Are they perhaps suffering from some media delusion and thought they were laid off when they weren't???
Take a look at the baltic dry index chart. This measures the price of shipping raw materials around the world. The price has fallen through the floor. Do you suppose that's because globally there's been a spontaneous decision to stop shipping goods?
The economic situation is extremely serious. We are facing the longest and likely the worst recession since the great depression and like the great depression, its reach is global. That is not delusion. That is not media hype. That is a function of a sharp run up in oil prices, collapsing housing bubble, and a global credit freeze. We are in the middle of a giant deleveraging of global financial markets and it is an extremely dangerous and painful process.
It is real. 24757. judithathome - 12/9/2008 6:53:13 PM "are things in reality really as bad as we are being told."
They are probably worse.
And as to your question of knowing anyone who has lost their home, indirectly I see it DAILY. My husband is in the moving business...he comes home every day bummed beyond belief because he is having to tell people it isn't cheap to move...and they are moving because they have had their homes foreclosed on. They either decide to sell their belongings because it's too expensive to move or they put their things in storage because they have no place to move them...no new place because they can't afford one.
So don't tell ME it's all media driven. Keoni and I lost a third of our retirement in the past two months. That's not going to come back quickly.
Keoni's commissions on moves are down for the reasons I cited above...so we are looking at a lean winter.
We were rigid about savings...we paid in to his 401k and my mutual funds and our other savings before we paid anything else...always. For years. And what did THAT get us? One third of it down the drain. The house is paid for but it's probably going to be devalued...it's really effed up right now and it's NOT the media that has done it.
24758. judithathome - 12/9/2008 7:03:08 PM Update on my son...we were at the doctor for three hours yesterday...the doc induced an attack of vertigo for diagnostic purposes. Les will be seeing an ENT who specializes in vertigo but not until he's had a head and neck MRI this afternoon to make sure this isn't being caused by post-surgical circulation problems. He had about four attacks of it yesterday after we left the doc...we were starving and got to a restaurant (he was feeling fine), got out of the car and entered the place, and he started reeling and we went back to the car. I stayed with him the rest of the day and we ate crackers and watched the History Channel.
My son is killing me, slowly but surely...just kidding but sometimes I wonder if he's trying to get back at me for not giving him a motorcycle when he was 14. 24759. arkymalarky - 12/9/2008 7:59:00 PM Thanks for the update. Is there anything they can give him for symptoms in the meantime? 24760. thoughtful - 12/9/2008 9:50:31 PM I'm sorry he's still not well, but I'm so glad that they're following up on les' symptoms. He has such a complicated medical history that, even if the first answer is the right one, it can't hurt to ask the questions just to be sure.
Vertigo is an odd feeling but the stomach sickness that comes with it is just the worst. My sympathies. 24761. wabbit - 12/9/2008 10:23:48 PM I went through a bad bout of vertigo for about eight weeks when I went off Prednisone a few years ago. It passed, but I'm back on a low daily dose, having found nothing comes close to replacing a good corticosteroid. Non-drug-induced vertigo is far worse and lasts longer. Les has my sympathy, I hope the docs get him back on his feet asap. 24762. thoughtful - 12/9/2008 10:50:49 PM wabbit, i was talking to a buddy whose bro is a doc and whose wife suffers RA...he was saying their latest thinking is on high doses of vit d-3 for pain relief. I haven't read or followed up on it, but just thought I'd pass it on. 24763. wabbit - 12/9/2008 11:11:21 PM Thanks t'ful. I've heard about D-3 being used for lower back pain, but not RA. I don't take anything for pain, I seem to be very sensitive to painkillers. The anti-inflammatories (prednisone, ibuprofen) help, and the methotrexate and enbrel injections slow the progress of RA. But it's a funny thing, after thirty years I find I can psych myself out of feeling a lot of pain. I'm always aware of it, of course, but it's tolerable. I ice my hands when they get bad, but otherwise I'm doing pretty well. Still, D-3 can't hurt and won't interfere with anything I'm already taking. 24764. wonkers2 - 12/10/2008 12:23:02 AM The pain is real but the scan may be misleading 24765. thoughtful - 12/10/2008 3:32:49 PM wabbit, Vit d3 and pain relief 24766. thoughtful - 12/10/2008 3:33:53 PM I'm sorry to report that I'm still getting my morning headaches since taking the quercetin. Hubby seems to have no ill effects from it.
I'll have to quit it for awhile and see if the headaches go away... 24767. judithathome - 12/10/2008 5:17:19 PM Yesterday, my son was scheduled for an MRI here in town. Yesterday was particularly hard on him, symptom-wise, but we drove over to the MRI place and waited the requsite hour and a half to get him seen...no one keeps a schedule in the medical community any longer...and the tech came out and motioned to me. Seems they can't GIVE him one because of the aneurysm clip in his head! Even though it is not metal...they need verification from his neurologist that it is MRI compatable.
While I can appreciate their dilemma, I was still furious...not at them, they were super nice about it. But I got on the phone to the neurologist as I was driving us back to Leslie's house and reamed them out...the neurologist was called by Les' family doctor yesterday morning and HE gave the okay for the MRI! Why didn't HE mention the friggin' clip...we didn't remember it until we were at the imaging place filling out paperwork and even then, I figured since it was plastic, we were good to go. Well, I can appreciate the imaging guys' concern and need for verification...and am glad they were alert because if it HAD been metal and he'd gone through that, he'd be dead. (He couldn't have had one done there, anyhow, because it was a closed machine. (Les is claustrophobic)
Anyhow, the neurologist faxed verification to the family doctor (last night after the family doctor was gone for the day...) and now we're back at square one, waiting to find a place that will a.) have an "open" MRI machine and b.) have an appointment open.
Meanwhile, we STILL haven't got a referral and appointment with the ENT doctor to actually
treat the vertigo...I called this morning and asked them to go ahead and schedule him with the ENT doctor because I'm almost 100% certain this MRI is a waste of time. The doctor wanted it to cover his ass...in case it is a circulation problem instead of vertigo. Well, I suppose he IS concerned about Leslie, too...treatment involves manipulation of the neck and he is post-surgical in that area.
Still, he is sick as a dog and needs something done NOW. This is driving me crazy because all I've done the past week is try to get my son some treatment...I spend at least 6 hours a day either with him, at the doctor's, or on the phone trying to get him fixed. I could kick those ER people in the ass for releasing him last Wednesday night...they should have checked him into the hospital and called an ENT doctor but they sent him home with a puke bag and prescriptions. How can one control nausea with meds while throwing up?
I'm about to lose it, big time. 24768. thoughtful - 12/10/2008 6:09:41 PM See if the doc can give him a suppository for controlling nausea..my gf suffered from severe migraines that involved vomiting and the suppositories saved her.
So sorry to hear he's having these problems.
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