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27589. judithathome - 8/9/2013 2:07:11 AM The assumption that a kid you don't know is always like that is unfair. Your assumption that just because my 3 yr old is having a bad hour, or bad day, or bad plane ride that I don't care about parenting or a well behaved kid.
You're the one assuming here. I don't care if the kid is or is not like that all the time...I care about how they are acting when I am in a restaurant or on a plane. I couldn't care less if the kid is angel or a monster the rest of the time.
Yes, I do feel that parents who let a kid act up in a public setting without making any attempt to correct them are not doing the kid any favors. They may be sterling parents 99% of the time but in that instance, they are NOT.
Go ahead and tell me to stick it all you wish...I had a well-behaved child and it took a lot of care and hard work to raise him to be polite and to act well in public settings. You are probably the same way...you want your child to be the best he can be.
I just have a problem with your attitude that we, as diners, have no rights and that we should just "stick it" because you know YOUR kid is an angel 99% of time.
And by the way, I have NEVER said ANYTHING to a parent who is letting their child act like a idiot while I'm trying to eat. I figure they will pay for it later in life. 27590. iiibbb - 8/9/2013 2:45:29 AM That's right, you don't. Tomorrow you'll be in the express grocery lane with 16 items and rationalize it somehow. Or you have an overdue library book I want. Or you forgot to rewind the video. Or whatever. People aren't perfect. I tolerate a lot of things I don't do, but I have a kid who misbehaves almost never.
Stick it 27591. judithathome - 8/9/2013 4:49:05 AM Jesus....I don't give a rat's ass if your kid acts up or not.
I've had my say and you can think what you wish...you might give pause to consider that adage "He who protests too much", however. 27592. iiibbb - 8/9/2013 8:14:49 AM Whatever, my kids are good. But you are vain to think that what works for one kid works for all. I have several I do very different for each of mine.
I am not protesting. Sanctimonious Know it all about me mad. They don't know what my kid is like, or what he responds to as far as discipline goes. I'm not going to try to please someone with unreasonable expectations. Just because they protest doesn't mean it's worth it. Some people hate kids no matter how good they are.
I know from experience as a lifeguard the wide variety of children responses to authority and that bringing the hammer down all the time is counter productive.
I also know from that experience how tightly wound some uptight old fuddy duddies can be about the slightest infractions by people who have just as much right to be there 27593. iiibbb - 8/9/2013 8:22:00 AM I am not protesting too much. I am being very clear with you, as you were with your kids. When it comes to raising or disciplining my kids, My wife is the only one who's vote matters. 27594. iiibbb - 8/9/2013 8:45:17 AM Teachers get a vote. 27595. iiibbb - 8/9/2013 9:06:18 AM Judith reminds me of a joke.
What do 9 out of 10 abused children have in common?
They don't fucking listen. 27596. psychprof - 8/9/2013 12:25:58 PM Judith...I well remember what you have experienced in your life. Just wanted to say that. 27597. iiibbb - 8/9/2013 3:01:14 PM Yes--- because abuse is obviously something I'm in favor of...
She has expressed her opinion that it's more important that to her she share a restaurant with a kid who's "under control", than mine (who might have a problem every so often)... that my objection to her objection indicates a lack of my control over my children. Well, there is more to life than pleasing every person I meet.
If I touched a nerve, oh well. I abhor violence against anyone, especially kids, for the record. 27598. vonKreedon - 8/9/2013 5:38:35 PM The nerve touched appears to be your i3b3. As Judith said, she, and I agree, don't give a shit if someone's child is a perfect angel 98% of the time when that child is being allowed to howl in a restaurant instead of being taken outside. As you say, I'm in no position to judge a person's overall parenting based on the one data point, but I am in a position to judge that one data point. 27599. judithathome - 8/9/2013 5:49:53 PM But you are vain to think that what works for one kid works for all
I never said that...look, you have lost it over me expressing an opinion different from yours. I believe you when you say your child is a good kid...I have no problem with kids getting fussy...I just think if, when in a public place like a restaurant where others are there to dine and are PAYING for the experience, it might be better if the parent removed the kid for a few minutes.
This all started with your heading of the link you posted...it was "I am constantly amazed about how intolerant people are about children"
Having raised a child and having experienced unruly children in restaurants before (NOT YOURS, I stress) I thought maybe my opinion might lend some information for you as to why some people get irritated when the situation arises.
You fly off the handle at me and seem deaf to the fact that I was only speaking out because you seemed amazed that ANYONE could have a differing opinion than yours.
This is the last time I'm going to try and explain it you.
Enjoy your children...you are lucky to have them. 27600. iiibbb - 8/9/2013 11:46:42 PM 27598. vonKreedon - 8/9/2013 5:38:35 PM
The nerve touched appears to be your i3b3. As Judith said, she, and I agree, don't give a shit if someone's child is a perfect angel 98% of the time when that child is being allowed to howl in a restaurant instead of being taken outside. As you say, I'm in no position to judge a person's overall parenting based on the one data point, but I am in a position to judge that one data point.
Perhaps the miscommunication involves what constitutes unruly in a restaurant. Some people's threshold is unreasonably low. Particularly it sounds like the restaurant owner, and the legions of intolerant people posting about how children should be _banned_ from restaurants, trains, grocery stores etc..
Next time you might think to your Maybe your thought might be...
At any rate. My objection to Judith is her notion that her experience as mother is applicable. My objection to other people is the notion that sometimes it is a slog to get through a day with a kid who's sick, or just in a bad mood, but that doesn't mean that plans are going to change.
But whatever. The fact remains that I am amazed at how intolerant people are of kids; and now I am completely intolerant of their intolerance. 27601. judithathome - 8/10/2013 12:11:08 AM get through a day with a kid who's sick
Listen to me, you self-important little prick...I have been through more days with a sick kid than you can even imagine. So don't lecture ME on how to cope with that and how to be a parent...not until you've had a kid with stage 4 cancer at 10 years old and have the same kid DIE as an adult.
Those are things I hope you NEVER have to endure but those are things that give me the right to express experience as mother.
Now, YOU sick it, asshole. 27602. thoughtful - 8/10/2013 1:06:39 PM Gee, that went well... 27603. judithathome - 8/10/2013 5:20:17 PM Sorry I lost my temper...the equivalent of a child throwing a tantrum in a restaurant, I suppose.
3i3b resents anyone complaining about his child's behavior in a public place...I resent someone telling me my multiple experiences with a sick child are not pertinent and somehow different from his...they WERE...but let me tell you, he should be exceedingly grateful for that. 27604. iiibbb - 8/10/2013 5:27:05 PM No, i resent the hostility and lack of understanding. Especially since a lot of these people who complain probably inconvenience people all the time.
They want kids banned from all sorts of things...."if you can't control your kids you should be thrown off the aircraft or drive.... Etc etc"
How I lumped you into that crowd perhaps unfairly i don't know.
I remain amazed at how intolerant people are. It has never bothered me when the very young act like the very young.
That was my only point and I'm not a proxy for parents that do suck, and sorry for making you the proxy for people I think are too sensitive to minor behavior ( not talking about the wild ones... I am talking the normal ones) 27605. judithathome - 8/10/2013 6:18:10 PM How I lumped you into that crowd perhaps unfairly i don't know.
That is exactly what you did...somehow, the story became skewed to you thinking I want all children banned from restaurants even though I never said that and would never in a million years suggest something like that. How else are children going to learn how to act in public if they aren't exposed to it?
I tried to explain to you that the fault is usually with the parents, and I even said "not you", that fail to correct kids who are acting out and pitching fits with nonchalant parents sitting there ignoring them or the effect they might be having on other diners.
I was in no way suggesting your kids or YOU and your wife are like that...I was merely trying to explain why some adults might resent the situation.
These days, where going out to eat can be an expensive proposition, SOME people resent having that occasion ruined by unruly kiddos. That's all I was trying to say before you became convinced that I was advocating a ban on all children in all public places.
Sometimes you come here to vent, and I have always tried to be helpful in those situations and offer advice from the perspective of an older person's experience...that's what I thought yesterday's interchange was going to be but somehow it veered off into the personal.
I regret that. 27606. thoughtful - 8/10/2013 6:42:21 PM Not that I really want to poke a hornets nest, but I think part of the problem is peoples' perspectives.
Living with dogs, you get used to a certain level of hair and smell and slobber that people who don't live with dogs are not used to. So how annoying that is is different to different people, based on their exposure and their experience. But if I'm visiting their house, then I have to tolerate their comfort level with their dog. But, when they bring their dog out in public, there are certain minimum requirements of behavior and responsibility of the owner, including keeping them leashed and away from doing any harm.
I don't have and have never lived with children, so my understanding, tolerance, and sensitivity to high activity levels and confusion and loud behavior is different from that of people who spend a lot of time with them. I loved my old neighbors and enjoyed visiting with them, but being in their house with their 5 children was always better taken by me after a glass of wine.
So I guess what I'm saying is that parents who love their young 'uns and are used to living with them can't always see their children's behavior from an objective viewpoint. I'm reminded of Judge Judy who, when confronted by someone who tries to charm their way out of their bad behavior often remarks, "I'm sure your mother thinks you're adorable, but I don't. I'm not your mother."
And I'm sorry IsBs, you're right that people of all sorts do things that annoy people, but it doesn't exempt parents from minimizing how annoying their children may be to others. 27607. iiibbb - 8/11/2013 12:41:52 PM Look, my original post was directed to the open hostility against children - rather than the issue of feral children. The fair answer is no kids in restaurants after 7. Kids aren't dogs; sometimes they have to be with you. One cannot simply drop out of society to appease those with weak stomachs for kids.
My wife and I got caught in a travel delay hell with our 1 yr old. Plans to change him at the gate were dashed by sprints to gates and 14 hours strait in airports and airplanes on what should have taken less than half that. Then one flight the lavatory child station was broken... kid has a major poop. We changed him on our seats. I have it to a science so it took probably less than a minute, but I have little doubt that the odor and perceived mess bothered somebody.
Well you know what... B had been an absolute trooper thant day.. but 14 hours with very little time to stretch is not easy on a 1 yr old. That was a marathon. I have no sympathy for anyone put off by my parenting that day.
I saw a woman with a stack of groceries she probably spent an hour collecting in the grocery store saddled with a toddler in meltdown stage. People talk about removing kids from these venues, but do I expect that woman to abandon an hours work to appease those around her? Is she a bad parent? Hell no.
And one thing about hard discipline. It only works on some kids. Ignoring outbursts is a lot of times the best way to deal with it. Kids do try to provoke parent responses in order to gain any kind of attention. They are quite perceptive, can be quite manipulative, and they don't learn anything overnight.
I cut people slack for their infractions on decorum every single day. I have a kid; sometimes he's a burden to those around me. Oh well. Whatever discomfort they're feeling I get to feel 10x over.
So yes. I am defiant. Want a quiet dinner. Go out after 7pm; That should be well after anyone with snot-nosed brats would be out, and probably before the next table has gotten too drunk. 27608. thoughtful - 8/11/2013 1:17:55 PM Actually, instead, in our area, next to handicap spots are reserved spots for families with strollers or parents with small children, making a special place for them.
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