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27598. vonKreedon - 8/9/2013 5:38:35 PM The nerve touched appears to be your i3b3. As Judith said, she, and I agree, don't give a shit if someone's child is a perfect angel 98% of the time when that child is being allowed to howl in a restaurant instead of being taken outside. As you say, I'm in no position to judge a person's overall parenting based on the one data point, but I am in a position to judge that one data point. 27599. judithathome - 8/9/2013 5:49:53 PM But you are vain to think that what works for one kid works for all
I never said that...look, you have lost it over me expressing an opinion different from yours. I believe you when you say your child is a good kid...I have no problem with kids getting fussy...I just think if, when in a public place like a restaurant where others are there to dine and are PAYING for the experience, it might be better if the parent removed the kid for a few minutes.
This all started with your heading of the link you posted...it was "I am constantly amazed about how intolerant people are about children"
Having raised a child and having experienced unruly children in restaurants before (NOT YOURS, I stress) I thought maybe my opinion might lend some information for you as to why some people get irritated when the situation arises.
You fly off the handle at me and seem deaf to the fact that I was only speaking out because you seemed amazed that ANYONE could have a differing opinion than yours.
This is the last time I'm going to try and explain it you.
Enjoy your children...you are lucky to have them. 27600. iiibbb - 8/9/2013 11:46:42 PM 27598. vonKreedon - 8/9/2013 5:38:35 PM
The nerve touched appears to be your i3b3. As Judith said, she, and I agree, don't give a shit if someone's child is a perfect angel 98% of the time when that child is being allowed to howl in a restaurant instead of being taken outside. As you say, I'm in no position to judge a person's overall parenting based on the one data point, but I am in a position to judge that one data point.
Perhaps the miscommunication involves what constitutes unruly in a restaurant. Some people's threshold is unreasonably low. Particularly it sounds like the restaurant owner, and the legions of intolerant people posting about how children should be _banned_ from restaurants, trains, grocery stores etc..
Next time you might think to your Maybe your thought might be...
At any rate. My objection to Judith is her notion that her experience as mother is applicable. My objection to other people is the notion that sometimes it is a slog to get through a day with a kid who's sick, or just in a bad mood, but that doesn't mean that plans are going to change.
But whatever. The fact remains that I am amazed at how intolerant people are of kids; and now I am completely intolerant of their intolerance. 27601. judithathome - 8/10/2013 12:11:08 AM get through a day with a kid who's sick
Listen to me, you self-important little prick...I have been through more days with a sick kid than you can even imagine. So don't lecture ME on how to cope with that and how to be a parent...not until you've had a kid with stage 4 cancer at 10 years old and have the same kid DIE as an adult.
Those are things I hope you NEVER have to endure but those are things that give me the right to express experience as mother.
Now, YOU sick it, asshole. 27602. thoughtful - 8/10/2013 1:06:39 PM Gee, that went well... 27603. judithathome - 8/10/2013 5:20:17 PM Sorry I lost my temper...the equivalent of a child throwing a tantrum in a restaurant, I suppose.
3i3b resents anyone complaining about his child's behavior in a public place...I resent someone telling me my multiple experiences with a sick child are not pertinent and somehow different from his...they WERE...but let me tell you, he should be exceedingly grateful for that. 27604. iiibbb - 8/10/2013 5:27:05 PM No, i resent the hostility and lack of understanding. Especially since a lot of these people who complain probably inconvenience people all the time.
They want kids banned from all sorts of things...."if you can't control your kids you should be thrown off the aircraft or drive.... Etc etc"
How I lumped you into that crowd perhaps unfairly i don't know.
I remain amazed at how intolerant people are. It has never bothered me when the very young act like the very young.
That was my only point and I'm not a proxy for parents that do suck, and sorry for making you the proxy for people I think are too sensitive to minor behavior ( not talking about the wild ones... I am talking the normal ones) 27605. judithathome - 8/10/2013 6:18:10 PM How I lumped you into that crowd perhaps unfairly i don't know.
That is exactly what you did...somehow, the story became skewed to you thinking I want all children banned from restaurants even though I never said that and would never in a million years suggest something like that. How else are children going to learn how to act in public if they aren't exposed to it?
I tried to explain to you that the fault is usually with the parents, and I even said "not you", that fail to correct kids who are acting out and pitching fits with nonchalant parents sitting there ignoring them or the effect they might be having on other diners.
I was in no way suggesting your kids or YOU and your wife are like that...I was merely trying to explain why some adults might resent the situation.
These days, where going out to eat can be an expensive proposition, SOME people resent having that occasion ruined by unruly kiddos. That's all I was trying to say before you became convinced that I was advocating a ban on all children in all public places.
Sometimes you come here to vent, and I have always tried to be helpful in those situations and offer advice from the perspective of an older person's experience...that's what I thought yesterday's interchange was going to be but somehow it veered off into the personal.
I regret that. 27606. thoughtful - 8/10/2013 6:42:21 PM Not that I really want to poke a hornets nest, but I think part of the problem is peoples' perspectives.
Living with dogs, you get used to a certain level of hair and smell and slobber that people who don't live with dogs are not used to. So how annoying that is is different to different people, based on their exposure and their experience. But if I'm visiting their house, then I have to tolerate their comfort level with their dog. But, when they bring their dog out in public, there are certain minimum requirements of behavior and responsibility of the owner, including keeping them leashed and away from doing any harm.
I don't have and have never lived with children, so my understanding, tolerance, and sensitivity to high activity levels and confusion and loud behavior is different from that of people who spend a lot of time with them. I loved my old neighbors and enjoyed visiting with them, but being in their house with their 5 children was always better taken by me after a glass of wine.
So I guess what I'm saying is that parents who love their young 'uns and are used to living with them can't always see their children's behavior from an objective viewpoint. I'm reminded of Judge Judy who, when confronted by someone who tries to charm their way out of their bad behavior often remarks, "I'm sure your mother thinks you're adorable, but I don't. I'm not your mother."
And I'm sorry IsBs, you're right that people of all sorts do things that annoy people, but it doesn't exempt parents from minimizing how annoying their children may be to others. 27607. iiibbb - 8/11/2013 12:41:52 PM Look, my original post was directed to the open hostility against children - rather than the issue of feral children. The fair answer is no kids in restaurants after 7. Kids aren't dogs; sometimes they have to be with you. One cannot simply drop out of society to appease those with weak stomachs for kids.
My wife and I got caught in a travel delay hell with our 1 yr old. Plans to change him at the gate were dashed by sprints to gates and 14 hours strait in airports and airplanes on what should have taken less than half that. Then one flight the lavatory child station was broken... kid has a major poop. We changed him on our seats. I have it to a science so it took probably less than a minute, but I have little doubt that the odor and perceived mess bothered somebody.
Well you know what... B had been an absolute trooper thant day.. but 14 hours with very little time to stretch is not easy on a 1 yr old. That was a marathon. I have no sympathy for anyone put off by my parenting that day.
I saw a woman with a stack of groceries she probably spent an hour collecting in the grocery store saddled with a toddler in meltdown stage. People talk about removing kids from these venues, but do I expect that woman to abandon an hours work to appease those around her? Is she a bad parent? Hell no.
And one thing about hard discipline. It only works on some kids. Ignoring outbursts is a lot of times the best way to deal with it. Kids do try to provoke parent responses in order to gain any kind of attention. They are quite perceptive, can be quite manipulative, and they don't learn anything overnight.
I cut people slack for their infractions on decorum every single day. I have a kid; sometimes he's a burden to those around me. Oh well. Whatever discomfort they're feeling I get to feel 10x over.
So yes. I am defiant. Want a quiet dinner. Go out after 7pm; That should be well after anyone with snot-nosed brats would be out, and probably before the next table has gotten too drunk. 27608. thoughtful - 8/11/2013 1:17:55 PM Actually, instead, in our area, next to handicap spots are reserved spots for families with strollers or parents with small children, making a special place for them. 27609. thoughtful - 8/30/2013 1:46:02 PM Honest opinion needed.
On another forum I posted the following:
I feel badly for these kids who are raised on rap and hip hop and miss the moving sensation you can get from a beautiful melody...the chills, your socks rolling up and down.
I was accused of being judgmental. Was I? 27610. ricknelson - 8/30/2013 2:10:57 PM http://www.guante.info/p/spoken-word-videos-i-like_3.html
There's no correct answer thoughtful. Not imho. We have different experiences which shape our views. What I just wrote does evoke that a pause is needed when evaluating others.
If you peruse the link I've given, you can see the point of view of one or many who live their lives within the context of Hip Hop or Rap. I like that link because it's author is very thoughtful and has seemed considerate.
Don't worry about an opinion, they're changeable. 27611. ricknelson - 8/30/2013 2:12:16 PM Now, I'm off to the Great Minnesota get together, our State Fair.
Awesome to check in. Best wishes to all! 27612. iiibbb - 8/30/2013 2:31:25 PM Although rap and hip hop are not my cup of tea... they are legitimate forms... but a lot of it sucks. I don't hate all of it, some of it is gold, but I don't like it enough to listen to a station that specializes in it.
But... if that's all they're getting exposed to, then they are indeed missing out.
27613. judithathome - 8/30/2013 5:17:45 PM Well, the music they listen to speaks to their experience.
It's like "modern" art...does nothing for me but for some people, it speaks as thoroughly to them as religion. 27614. iiibbb - 8/30/2013 6:23:36 PM I have broad musical taste. Some of the rap and hip-hop is really quite good; but it's not going to appeal to everyone, and probably very hard to give a tour of it.
My least favorite genres are pop country (well pop anything) and smooth jazz **shudder** 27615. arkymalarky - 8/30/2013 10:54:44 PM Haha! I tend to agree with you 3i. Everybody who dismisses an art form out of hand misses something, including those who dismiss rap. There's some amazing stuff out there and being fond of wordsmiths, I like lot of it. 27616. thoughtful - 8/31/2013 12:31:27 AM Well, I didn't think I was judging anyone...only making an observation, in the same way someone may feel badly for me because I can't appreciate rap. 27617. thoughtful - 8/31/2013 12:32:26 AM Hah! I like smooth jazz!
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