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28056. thoughtful - 3/16/2006 10:45:18 PM see wiz, my inflexible mind has trouble with these 2 statements:
- Now we're all trapped in a relativistic universe where anything goes
- I'm advocating that you dance your dance
In my view these are necessarily contradictory...living to the mantra that one dance their own dance necessarily translates into 'anything goes'.
28057. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 3/16/2006 11:05:49 PM Christ! Now I remember why I just like to do drive-bys!
Don't get defensive . . . or literal!
Now we're all trapped in a relativistic universe where anything goes
Ironic exaggeration that allowed for my explanation of the insecurity/fear-based compulsion for rules and dogma.
I'm advocating that you dance your dance
Dancing was meant as a metaphor for intuitively trusting your own intelligence for tapping into one's own unique rhythm and joy to live a life without rules and fear.
And contradictions are okay, tful, trust me. Eastern thought accommodates contradictions quite handily. They call it "the mutual arising of opposites."
You can't have hot without cold, light without dark, love without hate. It's a conspiracy of the universe--this on and off thing (here I'm implying what death is, btw–death is the flip side of life and inextricably linked.
Basta–I'm otta here!
28058. thoughtful - 3/16/2006 11:30:39 PM sigh. 28059. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 3/17/2006 12:00:03 AM And what, eggzackly, do you mean by that sigh? 28060. thoughtful - 3/17/2006 12:06:17 AM You must remember this,
A kiss is just a kiss,
A sigh is just a sigh.... 28061. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 3/17/2006 12:21:24 AM HAHAHA! Very good!
28062. anomie - 3/17/2006 12:47:51 AM What is the Buddha?
Three pounds of flax. 28063. Jenerator - 3/17/2006 4:42:48 AM Thoughtful,
Jen, (I'm always amazed at what seems obvious to you is a mystery to me and vice versa.)
Ha ha ha. I know what you mean - we are very different when it comes to this area.
it takes a conscious sentient being to ponder its own mortality, its own awareness of itself and to question the reason for its own existence. dogs, cats, fish cannot and do not ponder such things. they cannot communicate such things with each other. for them there is only now..
I agree and have stated such things many times before. Their inability for higher thinking and spirituality are two areas which set us apart from them.
perhaps, as wiz is talking about, they are in the perfect zen state, being only what they are. they do not think of god, they do not worship god. they do not communicate with each other about god. such a concept is beyond them.
Well, I think that is an insult to Zen. Inability to ponder shows no form of understanding. The mentally retarded, the comatose, the braindead are all Zen in that case.
Man has created the concept of god(s) to help understand and cope with their present and the future, to help understand the why of existence and to give purpose and hope to man's activities, just and injust.
I disagree.
The god(s) man created have changed over the millennia to suit their culture and lifestyle.
I agree.
For example, many agriculturally based ancient civilizations worshiped female goddesses...mother earth, goddesses of fertility as they relied on earth to generate the food for survival. Many hunter/nomadic tribes worshiped male gods for their strength and agility not only for their ability to hunt, but also because in their roaming they were more likely to run into other tribes leading to conflict.
Yes, I know. The same is true of Greek mythology, etc.
What god is and what our concept of god is comes to us from our exposure to words and works of other people.
Not entirely true. You need the clarifier ' and from God Himself'.
Perhaps to translate it into your terms, who wrote the bible? Men wrote the bible. Sure you can argue that their words were inspired by god if you wish, but it's still men's words written down and still men's words interpreting what was written. As such, god is manmade.
On the pedantic level I can agree with you in that a human hand wrote down the words, but you are neglecting thevery nature of the author. If your mother spoke to you and said 'write down what I am saying,' and you did meticulously, you could not say that the book was exclusively your creation.
Take for example, the roman gods. I presume you believe they were false gods and that they do not exist and that there is only one true god.
You presume correctly.;-)
Well, then where did these incorrect concepts come from?
Who knows - man attempting to define the world in his own terms without God? Satan? Who knows.
Were they not manmade?
Yes and no - here's where it gets tricky. I believe that without the head and heart knowledge of God, men are deceived and suceptible to evil.
And in the same way, isn't our understanding of the concept of a monotheistic god also manmade?
Not necessarily. Your assumption is that God does not exist, therefore anything written or recorded about him is a priori false because it is not grounded in a reality. I disagree with your assumption.
What do you mean what about some evidence? Please don't start with the ways in which you feel god or have interpreted certain actions and results as part of god's plan and so on. That is all your personal experience based on personal interpretation.
Well, you're right to basically state that I cannot prove the existence of God to you if you deny the miraculous.
And as I said about faith, if you question it, it necessarily means it is no longer faith.
No it doesn't. Man by his nature questions things. I ask God for more faith all of the time. I question what I believe. I don't understand everything.
Getting from faith to fact necessarily means that faith is the first thing out the window as it requires questioning and testing that point. If I test it and it proves false than continuing to accept it 'on faith' is not faith but stupidity. If I test it and prove it right, then it is no longer faith but fact.
Well the fact of the matter is that Jesus lived and walked the earth and we have a record of his life and of his miracles. We have 2,000 years of faith, scholarship and archeology that testify to his nature and his claims. Where you and I part ways is in the very assumption that what is recorded is true (or not true.)
You believe Homer existed, Nero existed, and Aristotle existed and you believe what is attributed to them but you deny the veracity of the claims of the NT -a d that boils down to your prejudice against the miraculous and/or the supernatural. If you start your position claiming that no such thing as God exists, I cannot prove God to you because his nature includes the miraculous.
Blazes once said that if Jesus Christ said to her personally to worship Him, she wouldn't.
I honestly don't believe that anything would constitute proof to people who deny the possibility of the miraculous - even the miraculous! For just as the Pharisees plotted against Jesus after observing him performing miracles with their own eyes and in person, I believe you would deny any proof.
That is why so many religions wrap themselves in mystery and faith and teaching their followers to accept without question.
Christianity does not encourage faith without thinking and that really is an insult to presume that it does. We reason through the scriptures, we study them and part of that is naking sense of what they claim.
Many of their points will not stand up to questioning.
Especially if the starting positions are irreconciliable.
28064. Jenerator - 3/17/2006 4:46:11 AM Sorry for typos. 28065. arkymalarky - 3/17/2006 5:31:33 AM I haven't been involved as a lurker in the discussion, though I've skimmed it, but Wiz, is this yours? If not, whose? I really like it: That is to say that life is a journey from the illusions of certainty to the certainty of illusions.
I don't like most of the pithy phrases that are so popular among the pop-psych ed-policy crowd. One of my professors' email signature includes "it is not enough to stare up the steps; one must step up the stairs," author noted in the signature, but I don't remember the name--maybe I could use your phrase as the signature to my emails in course-work exchanges. 28066. judithathome - 3/17/2006 6:14:13 AM I've seen Penn & Teller do some fairly miraculous things but I'm not about to worship them for it. 28067. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 3/17/2006 7:08:35 AM arky- I think it's mine because I've been saying it for decades, but I'm at an age where I watch a movie I've seen and remember nothing about it. Anyway, I decided to Google it in quotes and wound up at The Mote archive and found it in one of my posts in the political thread.
I also found the following when all of the exodus-neocon supporters were demanding links that buttressed the argument that Bush was not a success in Texas . . .
31212. TheWizardofWhimsy - 6/20/2000 12:05:41 PM
"BUSH ADMINISTRATIVE INEPTNESS--POOR APPOINTEES, WEAK OVERSIGHT--FUELS HOUSING AGENCY SCANDAL "For several months, the Tx. Dept. of Housing has been reeling as federal and state investigators probed public corruption allegations against one of its board members (Florita Bell Griffin) and questionable practices of its former executive director (Larry P. Manley)." Manley was "appointed in 1995 by Gov. George W. Bush to run an agency that dispenses half a billion dollars a year to improve housing for poor Texans." By 1996, "state auditors reported problems at the housing agency. Investigators said that year that the department under Mr. Manley had awarded developers tens of millions of dollars in federal tax breaks in an arbitrary and undocumented manner." In 1997, state auditors "uncovered more problems....
They found that the agency had awarded more than 60 percent of the contracts under a new program to people who previously worked with Mr. Manley at Texas savings and loans." Manley resigned last summer. That same week, it was reported that Bell, another Bush appointee, was "accused of using her influence as a public official to approve federal subsidies for low-income real estate deals in which she had a special interest." Bush's replacement for Manley, Daisy Steiner, recently met with the Senate Finance Committee on Feb. 2 and apologetically conceded that her "agency serves only 1.5 percent of the estimated l.5 million low income Texans who need housing help," a poor record, even using the agency's own criteria. The following day, two years late, the state auditors sent their 1997 findings to George's office. (HC 8/28/98, 2/3/99) 2/22/99
How utterly predictable and disheartening to reread this after President Shithead has captained the U.S. America adrift and aground. But that's for another thread.
28068. alistairconnor - 3/17/2006 10:59:26 AM Well, you're right to basically state that I cannot prove the existence of God [Christ] to you if you deny the miraculous.
There's a syllogistic fallacy in here, Jen, and it underlies all of your attempted rational defenses of Christianity. Something like this :
A) The miraculous is real.
B) Christ is miraculous.
C) Therefore Christ is real.
The obvious problem is that, even if (for the sake of argument) we agree on A, then this premise validates Christianity no more and no less than it validates Islam, Shamanism, Flying Spaghetti Monsterism or what have you. 28069. thoughtful - 3/17/2006 4:10:07 PM No Jen, it's more than whether or not I accept the miraculous.
You agree that men created what you view to be false gods. So you agree that at least some gods are manmade. You agree that men have written the bible. (Funny how if god is so all seeing and knowing how he kept having his scribes edit and change the bible for so many centuries, but that's another issue.) You believe the xtian version is the right one, and you believe that your interpretation of the xtian version is the right one.
But beyond your belief, what evidence is there that that is in fact the right one? Yes, yes, god has revealed himself to you and so on. But that is not any kind of external evidence.
Even if I accept the belief in the miraculous, what evidence is there that the xtian miracles in the bible are the correct ones. Why not the miracles of native american religions? Asian religions? ancient religions? and so on. And isn't there the possibility that all these miracles are in fact manifestations of the same god? And if so, then how can one be so exclusive for a single version of the revealed truth and deny all the others? Further, if you accept that the xtian version of the bible is the true correct way, how can you decide which of the xtian versions is in fact the right one as each decides what is fable and what is true in the bible, each coming to different conclusions about significant principles to live by. (divorce ok? abortion ok? gay sex ok? not going to church on xmas day ok? predeterminism? transubstantiation? the holy trinity? heaven? and so on.)
Just the fact that man and cultures exist in so many diverse forms around the world suggests to me that whatever god might be, he is not so partial. That at least is some evidence, however interpretive, that there can be more than one best way to live.
The fact that I believe homer and nero and aristotle existed is no different from the fact that I believe there probably was a fellow running around by the name of jesus christ who said a lot of interesting things and probably died by crucifixion on a cross. He was certainly well marketed. I also believe there was a guy named mohammed running around and moses and john smith and l. ron hubbard. There have been lots of people claiming lots of things over the centuries. You seem to have found a way to select among them. I have not. In fact, what I know of what a lot of them have said, little of it makes sense to me and my experience. As I said to wiz much earlier...is there a religion for the reasonable, and I suspect that the answer is no.
Please note I did not highlight xtianity in particular, but in my view, it is no insult to suggest that thinking is discouraged in the xtian religion as it is in many other religions...rather it is in evidence. One need only look at the efforts by religious xtians to keep the teaching of evolution out of schools to see it. In fact one need only look at the history of xtianity vs. science to see just how much they balk in the face of people who are willing to question faith and instead use their thinking minds to test it against objective reality.
28070. thoughtful - 3/17/2006 4:58:33 PM sorry...joseph smith, not john smith. Sheesh! 28071. thoughtful - 3/17/2006 4:59:19 PM tho clearly there are a lot of guys claiming to be john smith who are running around!
:-) 28072. thoughtful - 3/17/2006 8:38:49 PM Here's an article about the book i referred to above.
In the first few centuries after Jesus' crucifixion, scribes manually copied the books that would ultimately compose it. In the course of reproducing the manuscripts, they accidentally or intentionally made thousands of changes to the texts. Although most of those changes were insignificant, Ehrman argues some were theologically driven and intended to settle disputes that raged in the early church over doctrine and belief. 28073. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 3/18/2006 5:10:08 PM This is an excerpt from a review of Kevin Philip's new book American Theocracy. The full review is in the American Politics thread.
Phillips is especially passionate in his discussion of the second great force that he sees shaping contemporary American life — radical Christianity and its growing intrusion into government and politics. The political rise of evangelical Christian groups is hardly a secret to most Americans after the 2004 election, but Phillips brings together an enormous range of information from scholars and journalists and presents a remarkably comprehensive and chilling picture of the goals and achievements of the religious right.
He points in particular to the Southern Baptist Convention, once a scorned seceding minority of the American Baptist Church but now so large that it dominates not just Baptism itself but American Protestantism generally. The Southern Baptist Convention does not speak with one voice, but almost all of its voices, Phillips argues, are to one degree or another highly conservative. On the far right is a still obscure but, Phillips says, rapidly growing group of "Christian Reconstructionists" who believe in a "Taliban-like" reversal of women's rights, who describe the separation of church and state as a "myth" and who call openly for a theocratic government shaped by Christian doctrine. A much larger group of Protestants, perhaps as many as a third of the population, claims to believe in the supposed biblical prophecies of an imminent "rapture" — the return of Jesus to the world and the elevation of believers to heaven.
Prophetic Christians, Phillips writes, often shape their view of politics and the world around signs that charlatan biblical scholars have identified as predictors of the apocalypse — among them a war in Iraq, the Jewish settlement of the whole of biblical Israel, even the rise of terrorism. He convincingly demonstrates that the Bush administration has calculatedly reached out to such believers and encouraged them to see the president's policies as a response to premillennialist thought. He also suggests that the president and other members of his administration may actually believe these things themselves, that religious belief is the basis of policy, not just a tactic for selling it to the public. Phillips's evidence for this disturbing claim is significant, but not conclusive. 28074. jexster - 3/19/2006 5:38:50 AM Jen,
Have YOU converted yet?
Grand Ayatollah Sistani on Homosexuality
Juan Cole
No you say?
Well maybe it's time you checked it out.
I am sure the Sayyed would be delighted to receive a pious pilgrim from the Cult of the Burnt Bush 28075. jexster - 3/22/2006 4:59:36 AM "You cannot evade the issue of God, whether you talk about pigs or the binomial theory, you are still talking about Him. Now if Christianity be. . . a fragment of metaphysical nonsense invented by a few people, then, of course, defending it will simply mean talking that metaphysical nonsense over and over. But if Christianity should happen to be true - then defending it may mean talking about anything or everything. Things can be irrelevant to the proposition that Christianity is false, but nothing can be irrelevant to the proposition that Christianity is true." GK Chesterton
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