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28265. wonkers2 - 4/26/2006 3:15:01 AM I'm inclined (barely) to agree with Pelle and Adam in this discussion. We are certainly capable of adapting to declining oil reserves. The transition will be momentous because our economic development for 100 years has been based on oil. However, coal reserves are huge and nuclear energy is a viable alternative. Solar and wind energy will also contribute. I heard recently that we are on the brink of a significant breakthrough in solar power. Motor vehicles some day will be powered by hydrogen fuel cells. However, global warming is worth worrying and doing something about before it's too late. 28266. wonkers2 - 4/26/2006 3:16:37 AM If you look at world car production you'll see that more people, not fewer, are driving cars every year. This trend may be expected to continue. 28267. wonkers2 - 4/26/2006 3:16:58 AM For the forseeable future. 28268. judithathome - 4/26/2006 3:33:41 AM Yes, Wonkers, just think of all the Chinese waiting to trade in their bicycles for cars. 28269. Adam Selene - 4/26/2006 3:36:23 AM As if. If I were Hu, I'd keep them on bikes for their health and build cities with housing near jobs, and GOOD mass transit. There's no reason they have to duplicate our mistakes. 28270. alistairconnor - 4/26/2006 3:24:54 PM Motor vehicles some day will be powered by hydrogen fuel cells.
Yes, there will be hundreds, perhaps thousands, of hydrogen fuelled motor vehicles. I'm quite sure I'll never own one.
The thing, Wonk, is that bottled hydrogen has a very low energy density compared to petroleum based fuel. It's just not a smart option. If you've got lots of hydrogen, probably the best use for it is to use it to extract or fabricate petroleum for transport. 28271. alistairconnor - 4/26/2006 3:31:40 PM Res : your reasoning looks rather circular. Wish fulfillment : People will still be able to afford to drive cars, because they simply HAVE to!
I mean, I hope you're right. But it doesn't amount to an argument.
To go back to your original quote :
Message # 28236 I think it's an interesting question as to whether or not it is moral to force people, via price pressure and taxation, to stop driving so much.
This sounds a little bit conspiracy-theorist. Would you care to expand on it? Is some malevolent entity heavying us with price pressure? Is there someone who can flip a switch and make it all right again, as your reasoning implies? 28272. Adam Selene - 4/26/2006 3:37:14 PM alistair - energy density is a technical concern, not an economic one. As long as the fuel+tank weight isn't too much or too big and the range between refills is acceptable (perhaps 200 miles minimum, like a motorcycle,) then energy density is a non-issue. But if hydrogen is like batteries where you just can't fit enough into the car, then that's another story (and you're right.) But, if so, why haven't we heard that argument? 28273. wonkers2 - 4/26/2006 4:31:33 PM Adam, I agree that there's no reason why China and India should repeat our mistakes. But it appears to me that that's what they are doing.
Alistair, hydrogen fuel cells aren't an easy solution. In addition to the low density there is a safety issue involved in driving around while sitting on a tank of hydrogen. My sources in GM say that this risk can be reduced to an acceptable level. My same source says clean diesel engines are a better interim solution than hybrids. He pressed for this but didn't get far. 28274. Adam Selene - 4/26/2006 4:40:05 PM But don't you know hydrogen is sexy?
See what happens when presidents dictate science policy with our money... 28275. uzmakk - 4/26/2006 4:43:52 PM Did any of you see the Instant Chinese Green City in Harper's of a month or two ago? 28276. uzmakk - 4/26/2006 4:48:32 PM Our architects, their ability to engineer socially. 28277. alistairconnor - 4/26/2006 5:48:57 PM Adam:
Energy density is an economic concern, too. Any electric or hydrogen car from existing technology is simply too heavy to get decent fuel economy, and that's the kicker. Until recently, I expected that my next car would be electric or hydrogen, now I think I'll be sticking with diesel for a long time.
This might change, if it turned out that electricity and/or hydrogen, or something else, became a whole lot cheaper than diesel for the equivalent energy, to the extent that it would be economically justifiable to make the cars heavier.
Back on topic : time to stop worshipping those big, clunky cars. 28278. PelleNilsson - 4/26/2006 6:51:00 PM Free hydrogen is not found in nature. The energy cost for extracting it is greater than the energy gain from recombining it. This is not a question of the limitations of current technology. It is the question of the impossibility of a perpetuum mobile.
Hydrogen fuel cells is a solution for the pollution issue(provided that the hydrogen is produced in an environtment-friendly way) but not for the energy issue, which is what we currently discuss. 28279. jexster - 4/26/2006 7:07:51 PM O sons and daughters, let us sing!
The King of heaven, the glorious King,
over death today rose triumphing.
Alleluia!
That Easter morn, at break of day,
the faithful women went their way
to seek the tomb where Jesus lay.
Alleluia!
An angel clad in white they see,
who sat, and spake unto the three,
"Your Lord doth go to Galilee."
Alleluia!
That night the apostles met in fear;
amidst them came their Lord most dear,
and said, "My peace be on all here."
Alleluia!
On this most holy day of days
to God your hearts and voices raise,
in laud and jubilee and praise.
Alleluia!
Alleluia! Alleluia! Alleluia! 28280. PelleNilsson - 4/26/2006 7:31:23 PM Does anyone need more evidence that jexster doesn't read, but just pumps out posts? Is he a member of this forum in the true sense of the word? 28281. jexster - 4/26/2006 8:23:49 PM My God Called This Morning
Well my God called me this morning,
Just a little while before day.
Well stop and listen what my God said to me.
He said, “If you want to make it in the kingdom,
You've got to fall on your bended knees”
Great God you know.
The prayer wheel, hey Lord, started turning and the spirit of God,
Set my soul a-jumping.
And the prayer wheel, hey Lord, a-turned over,
And a-moved a-one step near to Glory.
God rose up and shouted
Shouted
Lord God Almighty,
Hey, my God called this morning,
Just a little while before day.
Well stop and listen a-what my God said to me,
He said, “If you want to make it in the kingdom,
You've got to fall on your bended knees”
Great God you know,
The prayer wheel, hey Lord, started turning… 28282. resonance - 4/26/2006 9:32:17 PM Res : your reasoning looks rather circular. Wish fulfillment : People will still be able to afford to drive cars, because they simply HAVE to!
Not at all. What I'm saying is really not that hard to understand. People will pay a large portion of their income in order to remain mobile -- in many cases they require that mobility to get their income. Right now automobiles *ARE* aimed at a certain price point -- automobiles aren't made and sold with economy prices in mind. Their prices are arrived at after careful deliberation on what the market will bear. They are loaded with nice toys and the like to 'add value' and drive the price up.
If the amount of cash the 'average' person has to buy a car drops, that will not reduce the demand for it. That will just mean there is a bigger market for cheaper cars, and that market will be filled. If the amount of cash it takes to operate the vehicle rises, that does not mean that everyone will suddenly stop using their car. It just means that they will use it less. If gasoline suddenly quadruples in price, fuels such as biodiesel will look astonishingly cheap in comparison. If there is a lot of pressure for more fuel-efficient cars, then more fuel efficient cars will hit the market.
You seem to think that that last is a jump and it requires great, blind faith in scientific advance. I think it takes a lot more faith to assume that no more advances in fuel efficiency and alternative fuels will be made once the demand for them is real. It beggars the imagination, that faith.
This sounds a little bit conspiracy-theorist. Would you care to expand on it? Is some malevolent entity heavying us with price pressure?
What, besides the oil industry?
Well, there's always taxation, Alistair. Tell me how much gas costs a liter where you live. 28283. uzmakk - 4/26/2006 9:37:09 PM Amen, Nilsson. The prayer wheel, hey Lord, started turning...
On another forum there existed, for a while, a fellow with Jexster's habits. He called himself Postman. He was a dataamassa, not a real man. 28284. alistairConnor - 4/26/2006 9:55:24 PM Oh, so the oil industry is driving prices up. Right.
Nothing to do with demand and supply then. Nothing to do with Iran or Nigeria. It's the oil industry. And the guvvermint.
And it's immoral!!!
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