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28385. wonkers2 - 7/26/2006 12:27:21 AM As I have heard, the Bible is full of contradictions. Here are some. 28386. Jenerator - 7/26/2006 12:35:00 AM Westerners are good at finding excuses for the Muslim world. After all, Palestinians have been killed for years by the Israelis. After all, most Muslims live in extreme poverty. After all, European powers colonized their countries. After all, America exploits their oil. After all, the Crusades were evil and cruel. (This, of course, does not set the record straight: Muslims conducted their own crusades against Christians; Muslims colonized countries that were independent; Muslims exploited the riches of Africa and Central Asia; Muslims were wealthy when Europeans were poor).
What Westerners fail to realize is that over the last decade the tables have been turned, and it has been consistently the Muslims who have been involved in religious violence around the world: Muslims versus Hindus in India, Muslims versus Jews in Palestine, Muslims versus Christians in Nigeria, Muslims versus Christians and Animists in Sudan, and Muslims versus Christians, Hindus and Chinese in Indonesia, etc etc. Today, there is no Christian terrorism and there is no Buddhism terrorism. Today, there is only Islamic terrorism. You never hear a Christian say that all Muslims should die. A Christian who said so in public would be immediately silenced by the authorities and maybe arrested. You can hear Muslims ask for the death of Christians, Hindus, etc pretty much in every Islamic country. They do it publicly. You can see their faces in tv. Muezzins, imams and ayatollahs do it in the mosques and on tv. Nobody is stopping them.
Westerners fail to see a fundamental feature of modern Islamic behavior: whenever they obtain something, Muslims assume that they owe it to Allah (and to their faith in Allah). Whenever a Western country gives them something or does something for them, Muslims don't thank the West: they thank Allah. For example, if the West deported all the Israelis and gave Israel back to the Arabs, the Arabs would thank Allah, not the West. The Arabs would assume that it was their faith in Allah, and their fight in the name of Allah, that gave them Israel. In a matter of days, they would start arguing about something else: Cyprus, Sicily, Turkey, whatever. Devout Muslims never see the good in the actions of the others: any good comes from Allah, not from the West. Devout Muslims will always see the evil in the actions of the West: the evil comes from the West and is due to the fact that Westerners are infidels.
28387. Adam Selene - 7/26/2006 2:18:56 AM Interesting. Jenn brings honest critique of muslim practices, and the rest of you instead find fault with her glass-house religion.
So... is piling-on still a penalty? So what if christianity has faults... does that simple fact mean muslims are sin-free?
I agree with Jenn in one sense... it'ss fair gaim to analyze islam wrt commonly accepted standards of human decency without dragging christianity into it as a whipping boy. 28388. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 7/26/2006 3:48:03 AM Is that a religion or the label you attribute to everyone who does not share your beliefs?
No Jen, it's what the people running this country truly believe in or they would never have gone into Iraq and they would never tolerate what the Israelis are doing to Lebanon.
And I'm not defending zealot Muslims or zealot Christians, btw, I'm only addressing your ignorant support of a corrupt administration. It may seem like "piling on" because others here may share my dismay of your Christian support of murder and mayhem because the other side does it.
If that's Christianity, then I want no part of it! 28389. iiibbb - 7/26/2006 3:59:17 AM Plenty of Christian sects that marginalize women... Jews too... and I have plenty of Moslem friends who would never do that to their spouse.
Some people do some pretty screwed up stuff in the name of their religion. 28390. Jenerator - 7/26/2006 4:33:08 AM Thanks Adam.
------------
So, Wizard and iiibbb,
Let's talk about the tenets of the Islamic faith or the hadiths. Should we first address how women are to be treated and are treated in Islam or should we talk about infidels: who are they, what should be done about them, what are Muslims to do with them or to them??
You pick. 28391. judithathome - 7/26/2006 5:41:56 AM I agree with Jenn in one sense... it'ss fair gaim to analyze islam wrt commonly accepted standards of human decency without dragging christianity into it as a whipping boy.
Not to put too fine a point on it but Jen is the one who first said "We need a break from Christianity" today. Many's the time in years past when people would beg her to discuss something other than HER faith or not relate every change of topic back to HER faith so I find it humorous you, Adam, are acting as though we're piling on.
We're just in shock. 28392. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 7/26/2006 6:00:01 AM Address my previous post, Jen–before we argue over the seating on the Titanic.
I'm taking about doing the Christian thing wrt our foreign policy. I'm talking about removing the cinder from our American eye before casting stones, yadda yadda. .
Address my points first and I'll address yours. 28393. wonkers2 - 7/26/2006 6:07:39 AM Criticizing Muslim practices is like shooting fish in a barrel. 28394. Macnas - 7/26/2006 8:56:29 AM "We need a break from Christianity. Let's talk about the religion that is provoking the world today and taking over."
Ok Jen, I'll discuss it, but you cannot have it all your own way. Like it or not, you cannot ignore the comparison aspect coming into play, as you will be critiquing Islam from your christian perspective. It's impossible for you not to, just as I look at things through a catholic lens.
But I'm not going to debate with you when your first footing is such rubbish, "provoking the world" and "taking over", what are you on about?
Decide what you want to try and do, talk about why you hate Islam so, and why you think it's evil, or talk about the evil empire aspect of Islam that you see as a threat to the world at large.
Or, just do as many others do, and blog your opinions about it.
28395. iiibbb - 7/26/2006 3:27:56 PM From the first link on google when you type 'women' 'christiantiy'
Which in no means excuses what some Moslems do to their women... but we should recognize that you don't have to look far to find Christians who would pretty much do the same.
- Reformation Fellowship of the East Valley, Mesa, AZ (circa 1995)
"In the beginning God made man male and female. He made Adam first, and then made Eve from Adam's rib. This order of creation subordinates wives to their husbands in marriage, and women to men in the church. As an act of submission to their Creator women are commanded to submit to their husbands and to male leadership in the church. Women are not allowed to teach or have authority over men in any formal capacity in the church." 3
- Pope John Paul II (1995)
"Woman's identity cannot consist in being a copy of man, since she is endowed with her own qualities and prerogatives, which give her a particular uniqueness that is always to be fostered and encouraged... To all in our age who offer selfish models for affirming the feminine personality, the luminous and holy figure of the Lord's Mother shows how only by self-giving and self-forgetfulness towards others is it possible to attain authentic fulfillment of the divine plan for one's own life." 4
- Statement by "Christians for Biblical Equality" a conservative Christian organization
"...the Bible, properly interpreted, teaches the fundamental equality of men and women of all racial and ethnic groups, all economic classes, and all age groups, based on the teachings of scripture as reflected in Galatians 3:28: 'There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.' " 7
- Jerry Falwell
"Most of these feminists are radical, frustrated lesbians, many of them, and man-haters, and failures in their relationships with men, and who have declared war on the male gender. The Biblical condemnation of feminism has to do with its radical philosophy and goals. That's the bottom line.
- The Council on Biblical Manhood & Womanhood (1997)
"...God, by creating Adam first (Gen. 2:18; 1 Cor. 11:8) and also by creating woman for man (Gen. 2:18,20,22; 1 Cor. 11:9), has set the gender-based role and responsibility of males in the most basic unit of society (the family) to be that of leader, provider and self-sacrificial protector (also cf. Eph. 5:25; 1 Peter 3:7), and likewise has set the gender-based role and responsibility of females to be that of help and nurture (Gen. 2:18) and life-giving (Gen. 3:20) under male leadership and protection (cf. 1 Peter 3:7)..." 8
- Randall Terry, head of Operation Rescue
"...make dads the godly leaders [of the family] with the women in submission, raising kids for the glory of God."
So I say why fight Islam's subjugation and abuse of women specifically, and just fight the subjugation and abuse of women in general.
However, I suspect that Islam's treatment of women is mixed... as is Christianity's. So I think it's a mistake to say that __________ treats women badly.
One thing I know is that characterizing Islam (and just about anything newsworthy) based how TV covers it is probably a mistake. 28396. alistairConnor - 7/26/2006 4:21:40 PM If we had a discussion about Judaism and the bad stuff that has been done in its name, and how Jewish tradition negates women etc, without any Jewish participation in the discussion, what would you call that, Jen? 28397. judithathome - 7/27/2006 1:30:10 AM FOX News. 28398. Jenerator - 7/27/2006 2:24:05 PM You see, we can't talk about anything other than Christianiy in here.
28399. Jenerator - 7/27/2006 2:26:34 PM Wizard,
I'd say that the Christian response to terrorism is difficult. On the one hand we are definitely, resolutely called to pray for our enemies. And we should definitely help with humanitarian aide! Yet, should we allow ourselves to be attacked? I don't think so. 28400. Macnas - 7/27/2006 2:30:04 PM It's not easy, being green. 28401. Jenerator - 7/27/2006 2:33:01 PM 28396. alistairConnor - 7/26/2006 4:21:40 PM
If we had a discussion about Judaism and the bad stuff that has been done in its name, and how Jewish tradition negates women etc, without any Jewish participation in the discussion, what would you call that, Jen?
28397. judithathome - 7/27/2006 1:30:10 AM
FOX News.
You must not watch Fox News, Judith.
28402. Jenerator - 7/27/2006 2:34:10 PM And Alistair, as for having participation from someone who practices the same form of Islam, I am all for you locating a poster who lives in the Middle East and is observant. 28403. wonkers2 - 7/27/2006 2:34:34 PM Yes, but should we destroy a country and kill hundreds of civilians because two of our soldiers are kidnapped. As Kristoff pointed out the British didn't bomb Boston or Dublin because some people there supported the IRA. And Spain didn't try to deal with ETA Basques based across the border and tolerated by France by bombing and then invading France. It strikes me as a matter of proportion. Also, it appears from what University Of Michigan professor, Juan Cole says, that Israel had been planning the invasion of Lebanon for some time and only used the kidnappings as a pretext. They also apparently got the green light well in advance by the Bush administration which is now rushing to supply additional high tech weapons to Israel while bitching about support for Hesbollah by Iran. Go figure. 28404. Jenerator - 7/27/2006 2:39:25 PM Wonkers,
Ever since Israel's withdraw of southern Lebanon, Israel has been watching Hezbollah with an emergency contigency plan. That's called SMART, and every Westernized country has a contigency plan. You know, a worst-case scenario type of plan? And not only did HEzbollah ignore the cease-fire, but it continued to shoot rockets randomly into Israel. Hezbollah was voted in OVERWHELMINGLY to the government, the Interior Minister so much as vowing total annhiliation of Israel, and it continued to siphon weapons in through Syrian and Iran. The attack on the Israeli soldies was the final straw, and honestly, who can blame them for wanting to get rid of Hezbollah and to protect its borders?
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