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28412. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 7/27/2006 4:16:36 PM You misrepresent my points, Alistair. I'm saying you can't claim to be Christian and advocate innocent slaughter. Where did I say otherwise?
Wrt religious zealotry, hatred is the reason behind all of the slaughter and it will always be a spiral downward until the root causes for the hatred are addressed.
If America and the many Zionist supporters around the world refuse to acknowledge the decades of humiliation and suffering that the Palestinians have endured as a result of colonial injustice, the increased murder and mayhem will only make this planet even more of a living-hell. Hatred and outrage burns everything in its path because of its nature.
I know what the response will be at this point: "What about The Jew's suffering?" I would respond that The Holocaust doesn't give Israel the right to behave like Fascist state that willfully imposes the suffering and degradation of innocent people–regardless of their beliefs and intentions. The Jews, of all people, should know better.
If this is what you were implying, then we are in agreement.
28413. Jenerator - 7/28/2006 2:58:28 AM Macnas,
I think you and I are just both distraught at innocent people being killed. I know you think I don't care, but that's not true. I am a mother and it pains me to see pictures of dead children, reagardless of their nationality, ethnicity or religion. I hate Hezbollah, not all Lebanese. I hate it that innocent Lebanese and Israelis are dying. I wish militant Islam would go away.
Alistair,
I'm not sure why living in the Middle East is particularly relevant if it's Islam you want to discuss. Or do you really want to discuss the geopolitical implications of Islam in the Middle East? That's not the same thing.
I thought you all were trying to find someone who could relate to the Islam that is being practiced in the Middle East - especially since the Israeli/Hezbollah crisis.
if a Moslem from Malaysia or Indonesia joined the discussion, why would that pose a problem?
It wouldn't. I think though, that there would be some differences in culture and perhaps attitude toward Islam, but in the end, they would still be of the same religion. Just make sure you find someone observant.
(apart from the fact that they would be more difficult for you to catalogue and stereotype...)
Nice try, but I am not looking for someone to catalogue and stereotype.
and what particular "form of islam" did you want to discuss?
Traditional Islam, Arabian Islam, Wahabi Islam. (Same thing)
On the contrary it is urgent to wipe religion from the international agenda.
That ain't going to happen.
Wizard,
I'm saying you can't claim to be Christian and advocate innocent slaughter.
Who's the Christian advocating innocent slaughter? If you say me, you're full of hot air, because I have NEVER advocated innocent slaughter. In fact, *I* use that argument against abortion (it's murder of innocent life).
Wrt religious zealotry, hatred is the reason behind all of the slaughter and it will always be a spiral downward until the root causes for the hatred are addressed.
I totally agree. The problem is, we cannot change the heart of man, but one at a time, and I do not foresee that happening with any terrorist organization. I think there has to be a degree of rationality that enables a man to even acknowledge zealotry, let alone want to change it. I don't see how that's possible with militants.
acknowledge the decades of humiliation and suffering that the Palestinians have endured as a result of colonial injustice, the increased murder and mayhem will only make this planet even more of a living-hell. Hatred and outrage burns everything in its path because of its nature.
You're completely neglecting any culpability of the Palestinians!!! How can you do that? It's the Zionists and Colonialists who are bad, and the PLO, Al Jihad, and Al Aqsa are just misunderstood resisters fighting oppression?? I guess the terror they've inflicted on INNOCENT Israelis is okay? You need to take a long hard look at Yasser Arafat and the PLO, Wiz. Instead of investing the millions and millions of dollars he received in aide to the Palestinians, he lined his pockets. He could have built up infrastructure and housing complexes and so on and so forth and he didn't. And his supporters didn't make him. Ask Suha how life in her Paris chateau is while her 'people' suffer. Look at the complete picture. And while you dislike the State of Israel's sovereignty, the fact of the matter is, it's an official country, a legal country, and a thriving country. The Palestinians need to assimilate instead of rallying behind terrorist organizations.
28414. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 7/28/2006 4:56:16 AM Jen, you are the one advocating Israel's policies and those policies are killing way more innocent Lebanese than Israelis. So yes, you are advocating the slaughter of innocent people even though you refuse to admit it.
You still can't even come lose to seeing the point. I can't discuss it with you because you won't even acknowledge the injustice inflicted on the Palestinians. They got screwed by world powers who gave their country away to the Jews who are now acting like Fascists. They were robbed. Have you ever been robbed, Jen?
And yes Palestinians were exploited by bad leadership and acted out their outrage on innocents. But look at the numbers of Palestinian dead compared to Israelis and then tell me there's equal suffering.
Yes, Arafat was a corrupt leader who exploited Palestinians' fear and hatred–but, I might add, George Bush has been exploiting the fear and hatred in America for almost five years now. Just look at Exxon-Mobil and Halliburton profits or the billions squandered in Iraq or New Orleans.
28415. Macnas - 7/28/2006 8:30:49 AM Jen
You're not being genuine. Behind all that hand wringing for the innocent, you are happy to bear it all if the Hairy guys can be destroyed.
Now, I support any nations right to defend itself, and I see Israel as a legitimate nation to boot. It's a real democratic place, with more parties than spring break, and so many factions and splinter groups it boggles the mind.
Read the JP for an insight into the political hurly burly that is modern Israel.
However, I abhor the way it sometimes defends itself, and the way it sees the rest of the world.
The rest of the world can (and will) go to hell, other than the US, and then only because they got the money.
This special relationship perverts the natural flow of international diplomacy and responsibility. The UN has just come out with a pathetic statement on the death of the observers, remember? Those men who were killed by those precise bombs you fancy so much?
It says it's shocked by the incident. The US used its weight and would not allow any condemnation or criticism of Israel.
You should be ashamed of your government.
28416. alistairconnor - 7/28/2006 10:04:31 AM Traditional Islam, Arabian Islam, Wahabi Islam. (Same thing)
You're really displaying your ignorance and prejudice there, Jen.
"Traditional" islam comes in many varieties, like traditional Christianity.
Arabian islam : mostly Sunni, some Shiite.
Wahabi islam : a small, extremist Sunni sect which happens to be in power, unfortunately, in America's great ally Saudi Arabia. It's a problem.
So here we have the root of your problem with Islam : to you, they are all the same, they are all (Wahabi) Bin Ladens. That's called prejudice and stereotyping. Get over that, and perhaps we can have a rational discussion about "Islam". 28417. JEnerator - 7/28/2006 1:37:11 PM Muslims believe that Allah only speaks Arabic. 28418. JEnerator - 7/28/2006 1:37:58 PM So, let's begin with Wahabi Islam 28419. Jenerator - 7/28/2006 1:43:46 PM I am going to define certain terms and give examples.
From PBS-
Wahhabism - It is an austere form of Islam that insists on a literal interpretation of the Koran. Strict Wahhabis believe that all those who don't practice their form of Islam are heathens and enemies.
The religious curriculum in Saudi Arabia teaches you that people are basically two sides: Salafis [Wahhabis], who are the winners, the chosen ones, who will go to heaven, and the rest. The rest are Muslims and Christians and Jews and others.
They are either kafirs, who are deniers of God, or mushrak, putting gods next to God, or enervators, that's the lightest one. The enervators of religion who are they call the Sunni Muslims who ... for instance, celebrate Prophet Mohammed's birthday, and do some stuff that is not accepted by Salafis.
And all of these people are not accepted by Salafi as Muslims. As I said, "claimant to Islam." And all of these people are supposed to be hated, to be persecuted, even killed. And we have several clergy -- not one Salafi clergy -- who have said that against the Shi'a and against the other Muslims. And they have done it in Algeria, in Afghanistan. This is the same ideology. They just have the same opportunity. They did it in Algeria and Afghanistan, and now New York. ...
Can you show me an example of what the [religious teaching is in the schools?
Well, here, this is a book, hadif, for ninth grade. Hadif is a statement of Prophet Mohammed. This is a book that start for ninth graders. This is talking about the victory of Muslims over Jews. This is a hadif that I truly believe it's not true, as a Muslim:
"The day of judgment will not arrive until Muslims fight Jews, and Muslim will kill Jews until the Jew hides behind a tree or a stone. Then the tree and the stone will say, 'Oh Muslim, oh, servant of God, this is a Jew behind me. Come and kill him.' Except one type of a tree, which is a Jew tree. That will not say that." This is taught for 14-year-old boys in Saudi Arabia
28420. Jenerator - 7/28/2006 1:59:21 PM Shia Islam-
Shi'a Islam (also called Shiite, or Shi'i) is the second largest division of Islam, constituting about 10-15% of all Muslims. Shia Muslims hold the fundamental beliefs of other Muslims. In addition to these tenets, however, Shia believe in the imamate, which is the distinctive institution of Shia Islam...Shia Muslims hold a hereditary view of Muslim leadership. They believe the Prophet Muhammad designated Ali to be his successor as Imam (when uppercase, Imam refers to the Shia descendant of the House of Ali), exercising both spiritual and temporal leadership. Only those who have walayat (spiritual guidance) are free from error and sin and have been chosen by God through the Prophet. Each Imam in turn designated his successor--through twelve Imams--each holding the same powers.
A significant practice of Shia Islam is that of visiting the shrines of Imams in Iraq and in Iran.
Shia Islam has developed several sects. The most important of these is the Twelver, or Ithna-Ashari, sect, which predominates in the Shia world generally. Not all Shia became Twelvers, however.
Sunni Islam -
Makes up 90% of the Muslim population.
SuSunnis constitute the vast majority of the world's Muslims. They believe that the first four supreme religious leaders, or caliphs, were the rightful successors of the Prophet Mohammed. Sunni Islam draws its name from its identification with the importance of the Sunnah, which literally means "the path." The Sunnah is the example set by the life of the prophet Mohammed. The written document based on the teachings and practices of Mohammed, known as the Hadith, serves as a supplement to the Koran.
Sunni Islam does not possess clerical hierarchies and centralized institutions. The absence of a hierarchy has been a source of strength that has permitted the faith to adapt to local conditions. However, it also has been a weakness that makes it difficult for Sunni Muslims to achieve any significant degree of solidarity. Despite some very minor disputes there are many Sub-Groups in the four groups like Kharjiites, Wahabis, Deobandi, Barelvi, Ahle-Sunnat Wal Jamat, Ahle Hadith, Ghurba Ahle Hadits, Sunnis of Green Turban, Sunnis of Brown Turbans etc. etc. They declare each other wrong and seldom offer prayer behind each other.
For Sunnis, even a bad Muslim ruler is preferable to chaos and anarchy, and the Sunni religious tradition contains only a limited right to rebel. However, if a ruler commands something that is contrary to God’s law, the subject’s duty of obedience lapses.
28421. alistairconnor - 7/28/2006 2:15:47 PM Don't really see the point in this, Jen. We didn't come here to be educated about Islam...
But I'm gratified that you are instructing yourself, and that you now know how to distinguish between Wahabis and other Moslems. 28422. Jenerator - 7/28/2006 2:54:18 PM The hijab - much more than a headscarf!
Here are the ''viryes' for wearing it:
1.An act of obedience.
The hijab is an act of obedience to Allah and to his prophet (pbuh), Allah says in the Qur'an: `It is not for a believer, man or woman, when Allah and His messenger have decreed a matter that they should have an option in their decision. And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger, has indeed strayed in a plain error.' (S33:36).
Allah also said: 'And tell the believing women to lower their gaze (from looking at forbidden things) and protect their private parts (from illegal sexual acts, etc) and not to show off their adornment except what must (ordinarily) appear thereof, that they should draw their veils over their Juyubihinna.'(S24:31).
Juyubihinna: The respected scholars from As-Salaf As-Saleh (righteous predecessors) differed whether the veil cover of the body must include the hands and face or not. Today, respected scholars say that the hands and face must be covered. Other respected scholars say it is preferable for women to cover their whole bodies.
2.The Hijab is IFFAH (Modesty).
Allah (subhana wa'atala) made the adherence to the hijab a manifestation for chastity and modesty. Allah says: 'O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) over their bodies (when outdoors). That is most convenient that they should be known and not molested.' (S33:59). In the above Ayaah there is an evidence that the recognition of the apparent beauty of the woman is harmful to her. When the cause of attraction ends, the restriction is removed. This is illustrated in the case of elderly women who may have lost every aspect of attraction. Allah (swt) made it permissible for them to lay aside their outer garments and expose their faces and hands reminding, however, that is still better for them to keep their modesty.
3.The hijab is Tahara (Purity)
Allah (swt) had shown us the hikma (wisdom) behind the legislation of the hijab: `And when you ask them (the Prophet's wives) for anything you want, ask them from behind a screen, that is purer for your hearts and their hearts.' (S33:53).
The hijab makes for greater purity for the hearts of believing men and women because it screens against the desire of the heart. Without the hijab, the heart may or may not desire. That is why the heart is more pure when the sight is blocked (by hijab) and thus the prevention of fitna (evil actions is very much manifested. The hijab cuts off the ill thoughts and the greed of the sick hearts:
`Be not soft in speech, lest he in whose heart is a disease (of hypocrisy or evil desire for adultery, etc) should be moved with desire, but speak in an honourable manner.' (S33:32)
4.The hijab is a Shield
The prophet (pbuh) said: "Allah, Most High, is Heaven, is Ha'yeii (Bashful), Sit'teer (Shielder). He loves Haya' (Bashfulness) and Sitr (Shielding; Covering)." The Prophet (pbuh) also said: "Any woman who takes off her clothes in other than her husband's house (to show off for unlawful purposes), has broken Allah's shield upon her. "The hadith demonstrates that depending upon the kind of action committed there will be either reward (if good) or punishment (if bad).
5. The hijab is Taqwah (Righteousness)
Allah (swt) says in the Qur'an: `O children of Adam! We have bestowed raiment upon you to cover yourselves (screen your private parts, etc) and as an adornment. But the raiment of righteousness, that is better.'(S7:26). The widespread forms of dresses in the world today are mostly for show off and hardly taken as a cover and shield of the woman's body. To the believing women, however the purpose is to safeguard their bodies and cover their private parts as a manifestation of the order of Allah. It is an act of Taqwah (righteousness).
6.The hijab is Eemaan (Belief or Faith)
Allah (swt) did not address His words about the hijab except to the believing women, Al-Mo'minat. In many cases in the Qur'an Allah refers to the "the believing women". Aisha (RA), the wife of the prophet (pbuh), addressed some women from the tribe of Banu Tameem who came to visit her and had light clothes on them, they were improperly dressed: "If indeed you are believing women, then truly this is not the dress of the believing women, and if you are not believing women, then enjoy it."
7. The hijab is Haya' (Bashfulness)
There are two authentic hadith which state: "Each religion has a morality and the morality of Islam is haya'" AND "Bashfulness is from belief, and belief is in Al-Jannah (paradise)". The hijab fits the natural bashfulness which is a part of the nature of women.
8.The hijab is Gheerah
The hijab fits the natural feeling of Gheerah, which is intrinsic in the straight man who does not like people to look at his wife or daughters. Gheerah is a driving emotion that drives the straight man to safeguard women who are related to him from strangers. The straight MUSLIM man has Gheerah for ALL MUSLIM women In response to lust and desire, men look (with desire) at other women while they do not mind that other men do the same to their wives or daughters. The mixing of sexes and absence of hijab destroys the Gheera in men. Islam considers Gheerah an integral part of faith. The dignity of the wife or daughter or any other Muslim woman must be highly respected and defended.
28423. Jenerator - 7/28/2006 2:55:16 PM virtues...
I'm back to two-finger typing because of the baby. I may post one more about the chador. 28424. Jenerator - 7/28/2006 2:57:34 PM chador (Persian چادر) is an outer garment worn by women; it is one possible way in which a Muslim woman may follow the ħijāb dress code. It is a traditional Iranian garment, mostly used by practicing Muslim women in urban or rural Iran.
A chador is a full-length semi-circle of fabric open down the front. A chador has no hand openings or closures but is held shut by the hands or teeth or by wrapping the ends around the waist.
Traditionally, black was eschewed for its connotations of death and funerals and white or printed fabrics were preferred. Now, except for rural elderly women, black is the universal color for a chador.
Traditionally, a chador was worn with a headscarf (rusæri), blouse (pirhan) and skirt (doman) or skirt over pants (shælvar). After the 1979 Iranian Revolution, the chador began to be worn over a headscarf (pulled over khemar mæghne or 'rusæri) and a long overcoat (jilbab or manteau) became popular for total coverage.
28425. alistairconnor - 7/28/2006 2:57:58 PM Where is your source for these Jexster-style posts, Jen?
It doesn't appear to be the The Pennsylvania German Society, which you linked above, by the way... 28426. Macnas - 7/28/2006 2:58:37 PM Wahabism, can't be that bad if the U.S. is such an friend of the Saudi's.
Can it? I mean, Saddam's Iraq was secular, Libya is all but, Syria does not allow religious radicals to have any power or say.
Maybe they should all consider the Wahabi way, and become matey with the States? What do you think? 28427. Jenerator - 7/28/2006 3:06:34 PM Alistair,
I thought you all liked Jexster's style?
Chador - wikipedia
hijab - islamworld.net
Sunni/Shia - CNN, USC, islamfortoday.com, globalsecurity.org
Wahabi - PBS, globalsecurity.org 28428. alistairconnor - 7/28/2006 3:07:31 PM The stuff about the hijab is actually pretty interesting, because it illustrates how in practice it's actually a cultural construct, with lots of interpretation by scholars, on very little scriptural grounding. i.e. the situation varies according to time and place, and there is plenty of room for change in future.
Yes, the prophet indicated that women should dress modestly, in particular to cover their "private parts", which means that the bare minimum would be a monokini.
28429. Jenerator - 7/28/2006 3:09:34 PM What I have heard from many, many Muslims is that hijab is necessary to protect the men from lust, and so if a woman is not properly covered and it tempts a man, it is HER fault. 28430. Jenerator - 7/28/2006 3:10:10 PM Similar to the burkha! 28431. Jenerator - 7/28/2006 3:12:19 PM The Obligatory Conditions For An Islamic Hijab
1. Covering ALL Of The Body
It is an agreed position by many respected scholars that the face and hands of the woman must be covered. Some scholars say it is permissible to uncover the face and the hands of the woman as long as there is no fitna (infatuation) caused by this action. Two things must be taken into consideration
a) if she is beautiful and beautifies her face and hands with external substances, or
b) the society around her is corrupt where men do not lower their gaze, then it is prohibited for her to uncover her face and hands.
On the authority of the wife of the prophet (pbuh), Umm Salama (RA) said:
"When the verse was revealed that they should cast their outer garments over their bodies' was revealed, the women of Ansar came out as if they had crows over their heads by wearing outer garments.
2.The hijab must not be a display
The hijab itself must not be a display. Allah ordained it so as to cover the beauty of women and not for showing off. Allah (swt) says `And not show of their adornment except only that which is apparent.' (S24:31).
AND
`And stay in your houses and do not display yourselves like that of the times of ignorance.' (S33:33).
It is in no way logical that the hijab itself be a source of display.
3. The hijab must not be transparent The purpose of wearing hijab must be achieved. In order for the hijab to be a cover, it must not be made of transparent material making the woman covered only by name, while in reality she is naked. The prophet (pbuh) is quoted as saying: "In the latest part of my Ummah (nation of Muslims) there shall be women who would be naked in spite of being dressed, they have their hair high like the humps of the Bukht camel, curse them, for they are cursed. They will not enter Al-Jannah and would not even perceive its odour, although it's fragrance can be perceived from a distance of 500 years travelling by camel" This indicates that a woman could cause herself a grave and destructive sin if she puts on a garment that is thin and transparent and which clearly shapes her body's features.
4.Hijab must be roomy, and not tight.
The hijab is a safeguard against fitna. If it is tight, it will be descriptive of the woman's body and this violates and defeats the whole purpose of hijab.
5.The hijab must not be perfumed
On the authority of Ad'Diya Al-Maqdisi, the prophet (pbuh) said:
"Any woman who perfumes herself and passes by some people that they smell her scent, then she is a Zaniyah (adulteress)."
6. The hijab shouldn't resemble the dress of a man
Imam Ahmed, an-Nissa'ee reported the prophet (pbuh) to have said: "Women who assume the manners of men are not from us and also those of men who assume the manners of women." Abu Huraira narrated that: "The Prophet (pbuh) CURSED the man who wears the dress of a woman and the woman who wears the dress of a man."
7.The hijab must not resemble the garments of the kuffar
Abu Dawoud and Ahmed have related the prophet (pbuh) said: "The one who take the similitude (manner) of a certain people, then he/she becomes one of them."
Abdullah bin Ummar (RA) said: "The Prophet (pbuh) saw me wearing two garments dyed in saffron (orange), whereupon he said: these are the clothes (usually worn) by the kuffar, so do not wear them."
8.The hijab should not be for fame
Abu Dawoud and Ibn Majah have related the prophet to saying: "The one who wears a garment designed for a worldly fame, Allah will make them wear a garment of humility on the Day Of Resurrection then he will be set ablaze." The garment of fame is any garment a person wears to make themselves look famous. This applies whether the garment is highly precious and shows admiration to the life of this world or if it is chosen of a low quality to show lack of interest to this worldly life. The person may put on clothes with distinct colours so as to draw attention, act proudly and/or arrogantly.
9.Concealed ways of display
Examining the various conditions about the hijab one can clearly recognise that many of the young Muslim women are not fulfilling these conditions. Many just take "half-way" measures, which not only mocks the community in which she lives, but also mocks the commands of Allah (swt). They consider what they put on now wrongly as "hijab" So, O muslimoon, be mindful to Allah (swt) and His Messenger (pbuh), and do not deceived by those who "bless" this action of yours and conceal their true intentions. Do not be deceived, and there is no excuse to follow the evil.
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