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28547. anomie - 8/4/2006 8:57:13 PM The forgiveness I need comes from fellow human beings. I don't seem to need a religious framework to construct a moral code. I think humans probably had an innate sense of morality first - at the dawn of concsiousness, say - and later evolved a concept of sin, guilt, and God.
I agree that prayer seems unnecessary to an omnipotent God, but he has a lot of rules don't ya know. 28548. arkymalarky - 8/5/2006 3:25:21 AM I really like your perspective 3i3b, and it's very similar to mine. 28549. Trillium - 8/5/2006 8:06:33 PM Pelle, verily, thou hast pleas'd me with thy KJV quote in #28529.
Anomie, different people pray in different ways, to get different things from the practice.
It's true, for a person unwilling to acknowledge personal imperfection, prayer might be a time for throwing up yet more barricades to the surrounding universe.
I've noticed many people use their prayer practice differently, though -- not as a tool for bludgeoning themselves or the rest of the universe, but rather as a time for reflection, pulling back and seeking guidance on problems.
It doesn't really matter whether you believe in a "God" or whatever. The retreat, silence, introspection and looking honestly into your own imagination can be helpful, and many people use prayer this way. 28550. anomie - 8/5/2006 9:07:04 PM Trillium,
Prayer is a communication with a god. The other things you mentioned are...other things, not prayer. Introspection can be an aspect of prayer, but if there's no god involved it's just introspection.
But it again ahows that when it comes to religion, people use words in a way to make them meaningless. This reflects their confusion. It's almost like self-deception when we THINK we say something but we don't have a clue what it is. So we end up contradicting ourselves. If you read back, you'll see that while trying to explain something to me you basically said "prayer" isn't prayer. Just as iiibbb said "proof" isn't proof. 28551. Trillium - 8/5/2006 10:54:45 PM Anomie - if I bring a complaint to a religious woman; and she listens, then lower her eyes and tells me she'll "pray on it"; comes back the next day willing to give me space and negotiate, then her prayer has worked for her, and for me. However she does it, however she defines her prayer.
People often use words in a way that makes them meaningless, and not just about religion. But if my attempt to use words here only creates more confusion about religion, then I'll drop it and go take the laundry off the line... that's sure to be a successful use of my energies... 28552. anomie - 8/6/2006 12:16:12 AM Not that it's any of my business, but based on the way you use the word I have no idea if the religious woman prayed or just had a quiet moment. Why not use "prayer" for prayer, and "X" for X? Again, prayer is communication a god. Do you argue it's not? You say it can mean anything at all?
When people misuse words in a non-religious way, they usually don't spend time defending their error as religious people do.
In any case, don't take my comments personally. Your energies here are never wasted and always appreciated. But you can't leave laundry out forever... 28553. Trillium - 8/6/2006 3:18:05 AM Thanks anomie...I got everything inside and folded before the storm broke!
and just wasted a bit of time looking over the Guardian website, where they had something on prayer, including a quotation from the Dalai Lama about it. I liked it, but lost the link in the meantime; it sounded like the DL takes a broad view of prayer. Maybe I'll find it tomorrow! have to log back off now. 28554. anomie - 8/6/2006 8:16:49 PM I take a broad view of prayer too. I'm sure there are more ways to pray than there are people. I'm sure people contemplate and pray at the same time. I'm just saying it's not prayer unless a god, or idea of a god is involved somewhere. My whole disagreement with you relates to your assertion that, "...It doesn't really matter whether you believe in a "God" or whatever..." Yes it does matter. Without believing in a god or whatever, it's not prayer. It's something else. 28555. Trillium - 8/6/2006 9:23:29 PM now let me see if this will work:
About Prayer
anomie, your definition -- that prayer isn't prayer if it doesn't address a specific god -- might be a fundamentalist view of some sort. It does seem like a very limited definition of prayer to me.
Lots of people pray, and I have found prayer to be a foundation for understanding with other people who do it. I'm used to the idea of prayer; it is part of my family's tradition. My father would take me to go pray with my grandmother at her home, in the months before she died. It was a positive experience, comforting to all of us.
If someone says that they are going to "pray", I don't ask for a description of their personal god or non-god, or belief system. I take their word "prayer" to be a description of an activity involving spiritual communion in some form or fashion. Some of the people I know, who pray, don't believe in any kind of god in particular, but they do believe that they are praying (and I agree that they are).
So I guess you would disagree with their use of the word "pray" if their religion doesn't fit your idea of a religion... or something? Please clarify your definition. The Buddhists pray without being particularly god-centered, and I'm sure lots of non-Buddhists do also. 28556. Trillium - 8/6/2006 9:25:36 PM The link goes to a Guardian site that will probably disappear in a matter of time, they don't keep things up for very long. Here is a copy from the GUT thread discussion header:
This is not a thread to discuss the existence or otherwise of God. Prayer as a mental activity demonstrably 'works' for millions of people. It improves lives, it focuses minds, it brings peace to people who have nowhere else to turn.
Prayer can never be over-estimated but is often under-estmated by those who don't do it. Is prayer a natural activity of the human brain? It is very personal, and it is often extremely effective whether God exists or not. Why is this? 28557. anomie - 8/6/2006 10:06:58 PM Trillium,
We're carrying on about nothing. Let the dictionary prevail.
But I hope you didn't make any false assumptions about what I said. I didn't assert that God must exist for prayer to be real, nor does anyone have to be able to explain their god to me. I don't care if their god - or idea of god - is a peanut shell. I'm also not making an argument about whether prayer changes people or makes any difference at all. So, I concede to almost everything you said except one.
28558. Trillium - 8/7/2006 2:19:40 AM Okay, anomie.... 28559. wonkers2 - 8/12/2006 1:47:55 PM Detroit Muslims Support Tolerance and Inter-faith reconcialiation Here. 28560. jexster - 8/13/2006 2:18:39 PM The Archbishop of York, the Church of England's second-highest figure, has reprimanded US President George W. Bush for risking division by warning that the West was at war with "Islamic fascists". 28561. Jenerator - 8/14/2006 3:56:06 PM But we ARE at war with Islamic fascists.
Hezbollah, Hamas, the 20+ arrested in London, the 2 guys in Michigan, the list goes on. Those poeple are Islamic fascists. 28562. Jenerator - 8/14/2006 3:56:41 PM I am glad that Bush finally had the cajones to call them what they are - Islamic fascists. 28563. Jenerator - 8/14/2006 4:01:02 PM Anyone else hear about what they're teaching and chanting in the mosques of Iran right now? That Iran will nuke Israel soon and usher in the 12th Imam. Evidently, they're claiming that Iran HAS nuclear weapons and is planning on using them.
Armageddon, folks. 28564. judithathome - 8/14/2006 4:04:36 PM An article today in my paper was talking about the new generation of "street preacher"...evidently our downtown streets are graced with several.
There was a box on the page with lists...the one that was headed "Evangelical Christianity" had Baptists listed first followed by Assemblies of God, Church of Christ, Church of the Nazarene, Pentacostal, and many nondenominational churches.
The article also said this area (D/FW) has more than one million Evangelicals scattered around. Of those, 856,000 are Baptists. 28565. judithathome - 8/14/2006 4:05:40 PM Didn't mean to interrupt your screed, Jen, but I had that saved to copy over at Demonizing and I can't get in to WC. 28566. jexster - 8/17/2006 3:33:50 PM The Armageddon Report: CODE RED
Jen tell your pastor, tell Baylor U
RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!
A Message from the Prophet Hosea:
{I thought Bush was a bible boy!}
For they sow the wind,
and they shall reap the whirlwind.
The standing grain has no heads,
it shall yield no meal;
if it were to yield,
foreigners would devour it.
Israel is swallowed up;
now they are among the nations
as a useless vessel.
For they have gone up to Assyria,
a wild ass wandering alone;
...
The high places of Aven, the sin of Israel,
shall be destroyed.
Thorn and thistle shall grow up
on their altars.
They shall say to the mountains, Cover us,
and to the hills, Fall on us.
Judith..If Jenerator fails in her appearing, you're a Baylor Bear right?
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