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28619. alistairConnor - 10/30/2006 12:07:18 AM If you are asking me whether Christians should make religious war against Moslems, then certainly I think they should not.
As for picking wars we can easily win. Are you proposing Afghanistan, or Iraq, as an example? 28620. jexster - 10/30/2006 12:39:02 AM We're losing..no we've lost both.
Allah! Allah! Save us!
Those unto whom We gave the Scripture recognize (this revelation) as they recognize their sons. But lo! a party of them knowingly conceal the truth. al-Qur'an 2:146 28621. jexster - 10/30/2006 2:01:22 AM Narrated AbuHurayrah:
Strongest among men in enmity to the believers (Muslims) wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, 'We are Christians': because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant. (The Noble Quran, 5:82)"
Say: 'O People of the Book (i.e., Jews and Christians)! Come to common terms as between us and you: That we worship none but Allah; that we associate no partners with Him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than Allah.' If then they turn back, say ye: 'Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to Allah's Will).' (The Noble Quran, 3:64)
No wonder Jen et al have to proof text their way ..way..way out views
It is all right wing Jew propaganda
28622. Jenerator - 10/30/2006 3:37:40 AM Jex,
Here's the issue (in a nutshell). Mohammed wrote down the scriptures at different times in his life while dealing with different issues. Even from a cursory reading of the Koran you can see a change in tone. Mohammed goes from one extreme to the next. First he claimed that Jews and Christians were People of the Book. Later he claims that they must convert or be killed.
There is an Islamic principle called nasikh that explains that when a verse is in direct contradiction with another verse, the newer verse is to been viewed as more authoritative because it would have been more recent from the mouth of Mohammed. Abrogation if you will. So, if Mohammed said 'eat apples on the second day of the week' and later said 'cut down an apple tree on the second day of the week', the latter verse is to be viewed as more authoritative.
So, in essence, you view Meccan scriptures in light of Medinan scriptures. 28623. Jenerator - 10/30/2006 3:40:57 AM You would still have Muslims eating apples rather than cutting down the apple trees and both groups would claim to be fully Muslim. 28624. jexster - 10/30/2006 4:41:33 AM No he doesn't Jen...that's a lie.
I am not going to keep posting the same material that proves it
I have done it several times now
The issue (in a nutshell) is that you are regurgitating bottom feeder swill that right wing Jews have passed off as authentic muslim scholarship
You are republishing lies and bigotry 28625. jexster - 10/30/2006 4:43:11 AM And again ..the proof is not only in Muslim scripture but in praxis ...which when contrasted with Christain history of Jewish and Muslim persecutions, admits of no dispute either 28626. jexster - 10/30/2006 4:48:02 AM You want to know why Jen persists in Jew lies the answer is here
Her hate is the inevitable outcome of her perverse Christainity.
I think I've said that before two 28627. jexster - 10/30/2006 4:55:58 AM The Catholic Church of course rejects Jen's perverse understanding of Islam and Christianity, calling for a dialogue of mutual respect and understanding - something which Jen is manifestly incapable.
That's because she's a heretic.
She'd have been burned at the stake 500 years ago. 28628. jexster - 10/30/2006 5:06:14 AM Medina and Mecca: No Compulsion in Religion
Juan Cole has pointed out what countless other scholars have - something Jen can't quite seem to comprehend..
At least she knows the difference between Medina and Mecca:
He notes that the text he discusses, a polemic against Islam by a Byzantine emperor, cites Qur'an 2:256: "There is no compulsion in religion." Benedict maintains that this is an early verse, when Muhammad was without power.
His allegation is incorrect. Surah 2 is a Medinan surah revealed when Muhammad was already established as the leader of the city of Yathrib (later known as Medina or "the city" of the Prophet). The pope imagines that a young Muhammad in Mecca before 622 (lacking power) permitted freedom of conscience, but later in life ordered that his religion be spread by the sword. But since Surah 2 is in fact from the Medina period when Muhammad was in power, that theory does not hold water.
In fact, the Qur'an at no point urges that religious faith be imposed on anyone by force. This is what it says about the religions:
' [2:62] Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians-- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. '
28629. concerned - 10/30/2006 6:19:41 AM Re. 28613 -
No, my intention is not to 'pass', if I can get the Mote to accept my posting. Btw, did you know that you are the first person in the half century of my life to get me to read any but the shortest books in the Bible all the way through in a single sitting? It didn't happen during the five years I went to a private Christian school. It didn't happen in two years I went to a Baptist church. Are you proud of yourself?:) 28630. concerned - 10/30/2006 6:31:06 AM Btw, why should any Muslim, since the Old Testament which is holy to Islam guarantees Palestine to Jews, try to deny Jews Palestine? 28631. concerned - 10/30/2006 6:52:42 AM The Book of Joshua is a narrative of the Jewish conquest of Canaan at around 1400 BC which was purportedly promised to them by their God during the time of Abraham.
I don't see where anything in Joshua incites modern Jews, or particularly Christians against those of other religions in any way whatsoever. Even at the time, Joshua offered the various kingdoms (cities) in Canaan the opportunity to surrender or leave peacefully. Some took him up on his offer and coexisted with the Jews for hundreds of years. 28632. alistairconnor - 10/30/2006 10:34:51 AM Yes Con, I'm truly proud. If your reading enables you go beyond your shallow misconceptions about our judaeo-christian heritage, I will be even prouder.
But very surprised. 28633. alistairconnor - 10/30/2006 10:42:18 AM I don't see where anything in Joshua incites modern Jews, or particularly Christians against those of other religions in any way whatsoever.
Well, shall we compare apples to apples?
Either the Old Testament is relevant to modern Christians and Jews, or it isn't. Likewise for the Koran and modern Moslems, let's avoid double standards.
But I really haven't started looking at Joshua yet. Would you care to respond to my posts on Genesis Message # 28603 and Numbers Message # 28604, specifically relating to your suggestion :
Let's discuss the " verses of Christianity or Judaism" that exhort the believer to lie to, cheat, defraud and murder those of other faiths. 28634. jexster - 10/30/2006 7:13:38 PM 10/30/06 Islamic Fascisms?
Defense and the National Interest
By Ismael Hossein-Zadeh.
Authoritarianism comes in many forms, each presenting its unique threat to democracy. If, as Sun Tzu insisted, knowing the threat is half the battle (knowing oneself is the other), it is important to understand their similarities and their differences. 28635. jexster - 10/30/2006 7:14:28 PM President George W. Bush and the neoconservative handlers of his administration have added a new bogeyman to their long and evolving list of enemies: "Islamic fascism," also called "Islamofascism." This wonton flinging of the word "fascism" in reference to radical movements and leaders of the Muslim world, however, is not only inaccurate and oxymoronic, but it is, indeed, also ironic. Of course, it is also offensive and inflammatory and, therefore, detrimental to international understanding and stability. 28636. concerned - 10/30/2006 8:49:03 PM Re 28633 -
I'm afraid it is you who are attempting to compare apples and oranges by conflating Biblical narrative with inflammatory Koranic and Hadithic texts.
With your making such errors as the above, I have doubts that you can even even rise from your demonstrated complete lack of comprehension to shallow misconceptions. Unless you can do better/be more honest, it's pointless to continue this discussion. 28637. alistairConnor - 10/30/2006 11:52:49 PM I'm disappointed that you have conceded so quickly, by refusing to discuss the verses of Christianity or Judaism that exhort the believer to lie to, cheat, defraud and murder those of other faiths. (Genesis: Message # 28603 and Numbers: Msg num=28604> were merely my opening shots). 28638. concerned - 10/31/2006 12:26:13 AM Re. Genesis, Numbers:
These, again, are narratives and apply only to the ancient Hebrews from a time approximately 4000 years ago. You are not showing a trace of intelligence, honesty or proportion.
Why not try to find something, anything, in Judaism or Christianity that is at all comparable to the strictures imposed by modern Islam on its believers?
You have done nothing to make your point so far.
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