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28650. Jenerator - 10/31/2006 2:29:10 AM Nasikh
and more nasikh 28651. Jenerator - 10/31/2006 2:40:27 AM The biggest lie about Koran ever told
Today's Islamic scholars have a pleasure in showing the "NO COMPULSION IN RELIGION VERSE" (Koran 2:256). But these Islamic scholars who accuse the critics of using koranic verses out of context must check out the context of this verse. This is exactly what we will do:
But before we go into this we have to see when and why a verse was said by Muhammad (1) and does he contradict his earlier verses in that process (2)? In that case what happens (3)?
To know why and when Muhammad said some thing as a revelation (1) we need to make use of the chronology of the koranic verses obtained from the Hadiths and Siras, and the tafsir will also help us in this issue. Though there is no standard and accepted chronology of the Koran.
The Egyptian standard edition gives the following chronological order of the Suras, with the verses said to date from a different period given in parentheses:
XCVI, LXVIII (17-33, 48-50 Med.), LXXIII (10 f., 20 Med.), LXXIV, I, CXI, LXXXI, LXXXVII, XCII, LXXXIX, XCIII, XCIV, CIII, C, CVIII, CII, CVII, CIX, CV, CXIII, CXIV, CXII, LIII, LXXX, XCVII, XCI, LXXXV, CVI, CI, LXXV, XCV, CIV, LXXVII (48 Med.), L (38 Med.), XC, LXXXVI, LIV (54-6 Med.), XXXVIII, VII (163-70 Med.), LXXII, XXXVI (45 Med.), XXV (68-70 Med.), XXXV, XIX (58, 71 Med.), XX
(130 f. Med.), LVI (71 f. Med.), XXVI (197, 224-7 Med.),XXVII, XXVIII (52-5 Med., 85 during Hijrah), XVII (26, 32 f., 57, 73-80 Med.), X (40, 94-6 Med.), XI (12, 17, 114 Med.), XII (1-3, 7 Med.), XV, VI (20, 23, 91,114, 141, 151-3 Med.), XXXVII, XXXI (27-9 Med.), XXXIV (6 Med.), XXXIX (52-4 Med.), XL (56 f. Med.), XLI, XLII (23-5, 27 Med.), XLIII (54 Med.), XLIV, XLV (14 Med.), XLVI (10, 15, 35 Med.), LI, LXXXVIII,XVIII (28, 83-101 Med.), XVI (126-8 Med.), LXXI, XIV (28 f. Med.), XXI, XXIII, XXXII (16-20 Med.), LII, LXVII, LXIX, LXX, LXXVIII, LXXIX, LXXXII, LXXXIV, XXX (17 Med.), XXIX (1-11 Med.), LXXXIII Hijrah, II (281 later), VIII (30-6 Mec.), III, XXXIII, LX, IV, XCIX, LVII, XLVII (13 during Hijrah), XIII, LV, LXXVI, LXV, XCVIII, LIX, XXIV, XXII, LXIII, LVIII, XLIX, LXVI, LXIV, LXI, LXII, XLVIII, V, IX (128 f. Mec.), CX.
28652. Jenerator - 10/31/2006 2:41:08 AM Jex,
The revered work "al-Nasikh wal-Mansukh" (The Abrogator and the Abrogated) deals in great detail with many subject matters addressed in the Qur'an wherein there appears to be some conflict or contradiction. The book goes through every sura (chapter), pointing out in full detail every verse which has been canceled, and the verse(s) which replace it. The author notes that out of 114 suras, there are only 43 which were not affected by this concept. If there no contradiction why was such a branch of science ever needed?
Answer that for me. 28653. Jenerator - 10/31/2006 2:46:50 AM The Catholic Church of course rejects Jen's perverse understanding of Islam and Christianity, calling for a dialogue of mutual respect and understanding - something which Jen is manifestly incapable.
You're retarded. Everything I have said is legitimate. Nasikh is an Islamic concept and I bet that Ratzinger knows about it and is at least willing to admit it in private, unlike you.
That's because she's a heretic.
She'd have been burned at the stake 500 years ago.
Riiiiiiiiiiiight! What would they have done with you, Jex? 28654. jexster - 10/31/2006 3:16:02 AM Jen you can spew all that Jewish sewer sludge all you want to but it doesn't amount to a hill of shit.
The verse "No compulsion in religion" is NOT - unlike yours - taken out of context. It is a MEDINAN text and is self-explanatory, ie it cannot be explained away.
I have demonstrated how you have taken verses out of context and have demonstrated that your polluted knowledge of Islam is against the teachings of the Catholic Church and Islam. I have shown you where they come from. 28655. jexster - 10/31/2006 3:17:29 AM The "revered work"
That phrase comes from King's Missions
28656. jexster - 10/31/2006 3:26:57 AM Against a clear teaching of Islam, Jen offers her "satanic verses" - Jewish sponsored hate propaganda fed through the King's Mission, to Jen, to the Mote
This is how they try to argue their way out of the No Compulsion mandate..have posted this before
You won't find it in "King's Mission" nor will you find any of that horsewaste in Catholic or Anglican dialogues with Islam
>No compulsion in religion
Quran and Hadith on Religious Persecution
All of which would be rather funny were it not for the horrid history of religious persecution in Christianity, a history unmatched in Islam
28657. jexster - 10/31/2006 3:35:29 AM 3. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.
Since in the course of centuries not a few quarrels and hostilities have arisen between Christians and Moslems, this sacred synod urges all to forget the past and to work sincerely for mutual understanding and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom.
DECLARATION ON
THE RELATION OF THE CHURCH TO NON-CHRISTIAN RELIGIONS
NOSTRA AETATE
28658. jexster - 10/31/2006 3:39:46 AM Comunicato Stampa del Pontificio Consiglio per il Dialogo Interreligioso
[Continuing collaboration existing between them, the World Islamic Call Society (Tripoli, Libya) and the Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue (Vatican City) organized jointly a colloquium on Islamic Da'wah (Call to Islam) and Christian Mission in the Next Century]
Looking forward to the future, the participants emphasized that in continuing to live, witness and share their faith, care must be taken to respect human dignity. This entails respect for the religion of the other when speaking and writing about it; it also means freedom of conscience enshrined in the right to religious liberty.
Christianity and Islam agree that no compulsion should be used on persons or societies in the name of religion. Nor should advantage be taken of occasions of economic deprivation to exercise undue influence. On the contrary, injustice and exploitation should be fought by Muslims and Christians together and by all people of good will. Rather than carrying out Da'wah and Mission in the next century in a spirit of competition - as sometimes happened in the past - they should practise it in a spirit of collaboration, and as a service to humankind.
The Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue and the World Islamic Call Society agreed also to continue on their part to collaborate and to invite others to join them in promoting better understanding between Christians and Muslims for the good of all.
28659. jexster - 10/31/2006 3:44:00 AM John L. Esposito - Georgetown University
Washington, D.C. - The primary purpose and message of Benedict XVI's address in Regensburg, Germany was not about Islam, referred to in only four paragraphs of his eight-page lecture. And yet, this papal address to a university audience turned into an occasion for an international protest across the Muslim world. Morocco withdrew its ambassador to the Vatican, heads of state from Turkey to Indonesia voiced criticism, the Sheikh of Al-Azhar commented on the Pope's ignorance of Islam, and leaders of Muslim organisations called for a public apology. The incident has also triggered public demonstrations, the burning of the Pope in effigy in Pakistan and acts of violence against both Christians and churches.
The Pope clearly stated that his primary purpose was to discuss the issue of "faith and reason". He did so reacting and responding to a major concern of his, the excesses of secularisation: the triumph of secularism and increased weakness of Christianity and the Roman Catholic Church in his homeland, Germany, and in Europe in general, and attempts to exclude religion from the realm of reason.
Although the Vatican stated that the Pope did not intend to offend, his remarks did in fact upset many Muslims. Particularly offensive to Muslims was his citation of a fourteenth century Byzantine emperor's remarks about the Prophet Muhammad: "Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."
Now, Muhammad is revered in Islam as the final Prophet of God and the model of Muslim life. Moreover, the remark that he commanded the spread of Islam by the sword is simply inaccurate, for what the Qur'an and Muhammad did was recognise the right to defend Islam and the Muslim community by fighting those Meccans who threatened and attacked Muslims.
Equally problematic is the Pope's statement that the Qur'anic passage, "There is no compulsion in religion" (Qur'an 2:256) was revealed in the early years of Muhammad's prophethood in Mecca, a period "when Mohammed was still powerless and under [threat]" but was overtaken later when he ruled Medina by "instructions, developed later and recorded in the Koran [Qur'an], concerning holy war."
Both these statements are incorrect. Qur'an 2:256 is not an early Meccan verse but is itself from the later Medinan period and the Qur'an does not equate jihad with holy war. This interpretation of jihad developed years later after Muhammad's death when it came to be used by rulers (caliphs) to justify their wars of imperial expansion and rule in the name of Islam.
28660. jexster - 10/31/2006 3:51:38 AM Forced Conversion
The notion thatMuslims are commanded to spread their faith “by the sword” or that Islam in fact was largely spread “by the sword” does not hold up to scrutiny. Indeed, as a political entity Islam spread partly as a result of conquest,
but the greater part of its expansion came as a result of preaching and missionary activity. Islamic teaching did not prescribe that the conquered populations be forced or coerced into converting. Indeed, many of the first areas conquered by the Muslims remained predominantly non-Muslim for centuries. (INDIA!]
Had Muslims desired to convert all others by force, there would not be a single church or synagogue left anywhere in the Islamic world.The command There is no compulsion in religion means now what it meant then. The mere fact of a person being non-Muslim has never been a legitimate casus belli in Islamic law or belief.As with the rules of war, history shows that someMuslims have violated Islamic tenets concerning forced conversion and the treatment of other religious communities, but history also shows that these are by far the exception which proves the rule.
We emphatically agree that forcing others to believe—if such a thing be truly possible at all—is not pleasing to God and that God is not pleased by blood. Indeed, we believe, and Muslims have always believed, that Whoso slays a soul not to retaliate for a soul slain, nor for corruption done in the land, it shall be as if he had slain mankind altogether (al-Ma’idah 5:32).
Open Letter 38 Muslim Scholars to Pope Benedict XVI
Now either they're scholars or you're spewing right wing Jewish swill...
"King's Mission"?
What a crock28661. jexster - 10/31/2006 3:53:26 AM Worse than a crock, as I have said before, your slanders of Islam are an offense against the Cross of Christ 28662. jexster - 10/31/2006 4:46:05 AM Francis Arinze : Cardinal, Prefect of Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments; President of the Vatican's Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue.
Christian-Muslim Relations in the 21st Century
28663. jexster - 10/31/2006 4:51:33 AM 4. Facing the Phenomenon of Religious Extremism and Promoting Religious Freedom
Muslims and Christians have no choice but to accept that we are in a world in which religious plurality is a fact. "There is no compulsion in religion" as the Qur'an asserts (Q 2,256). Religion is therefore to be proposed, not imposed. Religious unity or compliance arrived at as a result of force - physical, psychological, economic, social or otherwise - is not worthy of the human person. And it is not a fit offering to God. Religious fanatics absolutely need conversion. As for those who engage in violence in the name of religion, this is a major insult to God and to religion. "No one can consider himself faithful to the great and merciful God who in the name of the same God dares to kill his brother. Religion and peace go together: to wage war in the name of religion is a blatant contradiction", said Pope John Paul II to the World Conference on Religion and Peace (in L'Osservatore Romano English edition, 16 Nov 1994, n. 2, p. 2). Farseeing religious leaders and wise statesmen are needed to convince people that freedom of religion is one of the dearest of human rights and that no one should be prevented from exercising this right, provided that the just rights of other people are not violated.
28664. concerned - 10/31/2006 6:50:29 AM jexster's febrile insistence that there is no compulsion in religion wrt Islam is a lie on the face of it. That's about like saying there's no compulsion on cockroaches once they enter a 'roach motel'. IOW, bullshit. 28665. concerned - 10/31/2006 7:06:39 AM From 'Tolerance in Islam':
Of the verse "There is no compulsion in religion", the scholar Nahas said:
"the scholars differed concerning Q. 2:256. Some said: 'It has been abrogated [cancelled] for the Prophet compelled the Arabs to embrace Islam and fought them and did not accept any alternative but their surrender to Islam. The abrogating verse is Q. 9:73 'O Prophet, struggle with the unbelievers and hypocrites, and be thou harsh with them.' Mohammad asked Allah the permission to fight them and it was granted. Other scholars said Q. 2:256 has not been abrogated, but it had a special application. It was revealed concerning the people of the Book [the Jews and the Christians]; they can not be compelled to embrace Islam if they pay the Jizia (that is head tax on free non-Muslims under Muslim rule). It is only the idol worshippers who are compelled to embrace Islam and upon them Q. 9:73 applies. This is the opinion of Ibn 'Abbas which is the best opinion due to the authenticity of its chain of authority."[1]
In exempting the Jews and the Christians from Q. 2:256, the Muslim scholars agree that the idol worshippers can be compelled by force to embrace Islam.
It is clear that, whether Q. 2:256 was abrogated or not, the scholars quite naturally admit to the historical fact that "the Prophet compelled the Arabs to embrace Islam and fought them and did not accept any alternative but their surrender to Islam."
THE JUSTIFICATION FOR COMPULSION
The Muslim theologians had to justify this compulsion. Here is the reason given by a famous scholar:
"No compulsion" is a condemnation of compelling people to do evil generally, but compelling people in the truth is a religious duty. Does the infidel get killed for any thing except on the basis of his religion? The Prophet said: I have been ordered to fight against the people until they testify that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah. This Hadith is taken from the words of Allah 'Fight them on until there is no more tumult and religion becomes that of Allah (Q. 2:193).
If some one asks how can people be compelled in the truth when the mere fact of compelling indicates a the violation of the will of the one compelled? The first answer is that Allah sent Mohammad calling people to Him, showing the way to the truth, enduring much harm ... until the evidence of Allah's truth became manifest ... and His apostle became strong, He ordered him to call people by the sword ... hence there is no more an excuse after being warned. The second answer is that people first are taken and compelled, but when Islam becomes prevalent ... and they mix and make friends ... their faith strengthens and finally becomes sincere."[2]
According to the above :
1. Muslims believe that they have the right to compel people to accept Islam because it is the truth.
2. Muslims believe that Mohammad was given a divine command to fight against people, not in self defence or for economical or political reasons, but because people do not worship the one Mohammad worshipped.
3. The above scholar had no value for the human free will. To him, forcing Islam on people is justified if later on they will become Muslims. It is not an exaggeration then to say that the sword is Allah's final word.
Dr. M. Khan the translator of Sahih al-Bukhari into English, had this to say in the introduction to his translation:
"Allah revealed in Sura Bara'at (Repentance, IX) the order to discard (all) obligations (covenants, etc), and commanded the Muslims to fight against all the Pagans as well as against the people of the Scriptures (Jews and Christians) if they do not embrace Islam, till they pay the Jizia (a tax levied on the Jews and Christians) with willing submission and feel themselves subdued (as it is revealed in 9:29). So the Muslims were not permitted to abandon "the fighting" against them (Pagans, Jews and Christians) and to reconcile with them and to suspend hostilities against them for an unlimited period while they are strong and have the ability to fight against them. So at first "the fighting" was forbidden, then it was permitted, and after that it was made obligatory."[11]
Thus all verses in the Kor(a)n suggesting there is no compulsion in Islam are abrogated. Rather, the vacillating purported 'will of Allah' was nothing more than an expedient way for Muhammad (Pigs Be Upon Him) to impose his personal will on others by taking advantage of their credulity.
Jexster - you going to keep repeating abrogated flat earth Islamic religious texts (of which there are more than there are not) like some fucking brain damaged parrot?
28666. concerned - 10/31/2006 7:09:24 AM 28667. concerned - 10/31/2006 7:22:32 AM toys? 28668. concerned - 10/31/2006 8:17:55 AM When Muhammad wrote 'there is no religious compulsion', and then he created a religious compulsion in a big way, that made him a fucking liar. 28669. jexster - 10/31/2006 10:22:15 AM You tell em TD!
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