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28677. alistairconnor - 10/31/2006 10:46:39 AM I have to concede that you have definitely found examples where the Hebrews have mistreated others in such ways in the past. My apologies if you misunderstood what I was asking. [...]
That means now, not 1500 years ago. Not 3000 years ago. Now.
So, when Mahomet (1200 years ago) exhorts the people of Medina to have no mercy on the pagans of Mecca who attack them, you concede that this has no relevance to modern Moslems, as Jexster claims? 28678. jexster - 10/31/2006 10:47:25 AM God told me to strike at al Qaida and I struck them, and then he instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did, and now I am determined to solve the problem in the Middle East. If you help me I will act, and if not, the elections will come and I will have to focus on them. [Holy BushWrit 2:204] 28679. jexster - 10/31/2006 10:57:19 AM The real problem here is the same problem that zealots like Daniel Goldhagen have when they attempt to blame the Holocaust on Christianity. History is not so simple as the simple minded would have you believe.
Indeed, in the case of Islam it is much more complex because they have no Pope, no eeclesial structure, no Magesterium
Muslims are rather much like US Fundamentalists which makes this entire argument rather precious 28680. alistairconnor - 10/31/2006 11:04:28 AM I ask all to take note of the subtle perversity of Con's rhetoric :
He invites me to look for
verses of Christianity or Judaism that exhort the believer to lie to, cheat, defraud and murder those of other faiths
and when I quote the Old Testament to illustrate exactly this, he distances himself from those sacred, distasteful Judaeo-Christian texts, then projects onto me :
AC - however much contempt you may have for Jewish religious beliefs and attitudes...
.... classic!
So, Con, make yourself clear. Do you repudiate the Old Testament, as did Marcion, and with it the Ten Commandments? 28681. concerned - 10/31/2006 7:45:30 PM AC -
You refuse to grant the present tense only nature of my 'invitation', even when I re-emphasized it. You insist on conflating individual specific instructions given by certain Old Testament personages meant only for the ancient Hebrews thousands of years ago with the comprehensively controlling religious edicts meant for all present-day believers of Islam.
Until you can stop misconstruing my statements and correct these flaws in your 'argument' (I use the term loosely), don't hold your breath waiting for answers to irrelevant questions such as in 28680. 28682. jexster - 10/31/2006 8:08:06 PM Dhimmi See
Dhimmi Done Did 28683. jexster - 10/31/2006 8:09:03 PM "Concerned puts words in AC's mouth, like he puts bullshit in his head"
David Letterman 28684. alistairConnor - 10/31/2006 8:54:07 PM OK. Concerned will perhaps reveal how he chooses the relevant passages in the Old Testament. Those which consist of injunctions to present-day Christians, as opposed to those which were addressed purely to the contemporaries of the Prophets.
(Perhaps it's by divine inspiration. Concerned, a latter-day Joseph Smith?)
Or perhaps he will allege that nothing in the Old Testament should be construed as religious edicts for present-day Christians. This, of course, would make a nonsense of his original invitation, since there would be, by definition, nothing to discuss.
And would also be a confession of the Dualist heresy. 28685. jexster - 10/31/2006 9:02:43 PM Anyone seen Concerned lately?
A teenager carrying a Bible and shouting "I want Jesus" was shot twice with a police stun gun and later died at a St. Louis hospital, authorities said. 28686. concerned - 10/31/2006 9:17:58 PM Re. 28684 -
I wouldn't have thought that even you would have found Biblical texts so challenging, AC. 28687. Jenerator - 11/1/2006 12:26:39 AM Read it and weep, Jexster.
Al-Qaida and Fascism
Berman saw in Qutb's writing "the kinds of doctrines that one might find in reading the Nazi or fascist philosophers of the European past -- and the kinds of doctrines or writing that I could easily imagine might prove to be seductive."
Historians don't all agree on the definition of fascism, though they do seem to agree on certain aspects of it: Fascists believed democracies didn't work. And as World War II historian Michael Burleigh points out, "fascists are completely contemptuous of liberal democracy and the rule of law, both domestically and in the international sphere." Fascists also tended to believe in cosmic conspiracies, usually involving Jews, Communists or Americans.
28688. Jenerator - 11/1/2006 12:29:17 AM Islam in praxy
An Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood supporter holds a banner reading in Arabic "Martyrs for Islam," as another displays a copy of the holy Koran during a demonstration in Cairo, Sept. 22, 2006. Getty Images
Berman vs. Cole on NPR. 28689. judithathome - 11/1/2006 12:30:30 AM "fascists are completely contemptuous of liberal democracy and the rule of law, both domestically and in the international sphere."
Ha! Replace that liberal with a capital "L" and you've got Republicans defined to the max. 28690. Wombat - 11/1/2006 12:31:20 AM Three Fascist rulers, Mussolini (Italy), Salazar (Portugal), and Franco (Spain) did not believe in cosmic conspiracies. Note that Franco's belief in the threat of Communism was firmly rooted in his fight against them during the Civil War. 28691. Jenerator - 11/1/2006 12:31:49 AM You're dishonest and blind Jexster. Abrogation exists in Islamic theology. You're the one who doesn't want it to. You are the poster child for the stupid and easily led Westerner whom the radicals want for support.
Jexster, the poster boy for Al-Qaida mind control. 28692. Jenerator - 11/1/2006 12:33:02 AM President Bush didn't invent the term. A Lexis-Nexis search found the first time it was used in the mainstream press was back in 1979, in a Washington Post article describing Iran's Ayatollah Khomeni as an Islamic Fascist.
Since then, the phrase has morphed into "Islam-o-fascist.' That word appeared in a 1990 article in the British newspaper The Independent, which argued that authoritarian governments are the norm in the Islamic world.
But how can a small group of alleged terrorists living in London be Islamic Fascists? Doesn't the term fascism imply a central government, whipping the populace into a nationalistic frenzy?
Historian Paul Berman says it has happened before.
Berman, author of Terror and Liberalism, says that when fascism arose in Europe in the 1920s, '30s and '40s, similar movements cropped up in the Arab world. While different from their European counterparts, Berman says, they "had similar mythology, paranoia -- a cult of hatred and a cult of death."
28693. jexster - 11/1/2006 12:34:02 AM had similar mythology, paranoia -- a cult of hatred and a cult of death."
Now that's a real stretch. I hope the man didn't get a hernia
And how many Nazis blew themselves up in cars?
A bunch of Jews did. In fact, the Irgun invented suicide bombimg
Mythology? Nazi Aryan myth isn't even close to the most screwball jewball reading of the Quran
Not even Concerned's most twisted E-book learning.
And did I miss something Jen?
I didn't see Juan Cole's name mentioned anywhere
You just made that up
28694. Wombat - 11/1/2006 12:35:13 AM The point that Berman misses is that the Arab movements were primarily nationalist in scope, as were their European equivalents. Islam was a component of their nationalism, as the Catholic church was in the case of Spain, Italy, and Portugal. 28695. jexster - 11/1/2006 12:37:39 AM As did the Jews so that moron bigots like Jen and TD - true fascists in " " - could bore us with tedious discourses on Islam and fascism
They don't even believe in a fucking state. They want to destroy states.
They are anarchists, not fascists by any stretch
"Berman" eh? Of the Hebrew persuasion peut etre?
28696. Jenerator - 11/1/2006 12:38:01 AM Parallels can be drawn, I think.
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