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28733. Jenerator - 11/2/2006 2:10:18 PM Thanks for the birth narrative. What's your point? 28734. jexster - 11/2/2006 5:23:58 PM My point is simple.
This is not a "birth" narrrative. It is for Christians a fundamental salvific event and for Muslims too.
This isn't the "birth narrative" this is the Annunciation, the first sacred mystery of the Incarnation of God.
Both scriptures - even better the Qu'ran - attempt to capture the inexpressible salvific significance of the Virgin's fiat.
Both texts are indistinguishable their understanding of the God and his work of salvation in the world.
These and other verses of the Quran suggest several points of ulimate, eternal import to Christian...
And you ask "What is the point?"
28735. jexster - 11/2/2006 5:39:17 PM While the Qu'ran holds a high Christology and Marian doctrine, it ain't much on the Trinity. Understandable perhaps for Mohammed's struggle was against pagan pantheism an idolators. One in three, Three in One - One God Indivisible - Trinitarian dogma has tried the best preachers and theological minds for 1700 years or so. If Gabriel dictated God's Word verbatim to Mohammed, he spoke to an Arab caught up in his own special circumstances
The Quran Narrates Mary's Birth
35. (Remember) when the wife of 'Imrān (Mary's mother) said, "O' my Lord! I vow to You that which is in my womb to be dedicated for Your service, (free from all worldly work; to serve Your Place of worship) so accept this from me. Verily, You are the All-Hearing, the All-Knowing."
36. Then when she delivered her (Mary), she said, "O' my Lord! I have delivered a female child," - and Allah knew better what she had delivered, - "And the male is not like the female (in temple serving), and I have named her Mary, and I seek refuge for her with You (Allah) and for her offspring from Satan, the outcast."
37. So her Lord (Allah) accepted her (Mary) with a goodly acceptance. He caused her to grow in a good manner and placed her under the care of Zakariyā (Zachariya). Every time he entered Al-Mihrāb (her praying room) to (visit) her, he found her supplied with sustenance. He said, "O' Mary! From where have you gotten this?" She said, "This is from Allah. Verily, Allah provides sustenance to whom He wills, without limit."
(3:35-37)
Her Upbringing and the Announcement of Jesus' Birth
42. And (remember) when the angels said, "O' Mary! Verily, Allah has chosen you, purified you (from polytheism and disbelief), and chosen you above the women of the universe."
43. "O' Mary! Submit yourself in obedience to your Lord (Allah, by worshipping none but Him Alone) and prostrate yourself, and bow down along with those who bow down."
44. This is a part of the news of the unseen with which We inspire you (O' Muhammad). You were not with them, when they cast lots with their pens as to which of them should be charged with the care of Mary; nor were you with them when they disputed.
45. (Remember) when the angels said, "O' Mary! Verily, Allah gives you the glad tidings of a Word ["Be!" - and Jesus was] from Him, his name will be the Messiah Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honor in this world and in the Hereafter, and will be one of those who are near to Allah."
46. "He will speak to the people in the cradle and in extreme old-age( i.e. when he returns to this world), and he will be one of the righteous."
47. She said, "O' my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man has touched me?" He said, "So (it will be) for Allah creates what He wills. When He has decreed something, He says to it only, "Be!" and it is.
(3:42-47)
16. And mention in the Book (the Quran, O' Muhammad, the story of) Mary, when she withdrew from her family to a secluded place facing East.
17. She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them; then We sent to her Our Spirit (Angel Gabriel), and he appeared before her in the form of a man in all respects.
18. She said, "Verily! I seek refuge with the Most Beneficent (Allah) from you, if you do fear Allah."
19. (The Angel) said, "I am only a Messenger from your Lord, (to announce) to you the gift of a righteous son."
20. She said, "How can I have a son, when no man has touched me, nor am I unchaste?"
21. He said, "So (it will be), your Lord said, 'That is easy for Me (Allah): And (We want) to appoint him as a sign to mankind and a Mercy from Us (Allah), and it is a matter (already) decreed, (by Allah).' "
(19:16-21)
28736. jexster - 11/2/2006 5:40:23 PM Jesus' Birth
22. So she conceived him, and she withdrew with him to a far place (i.e. Bethlehem Valley approx. 4-6 miles from Jerusalem).
23. And the pains of childbirth drove her to the trunk of a date-palm. She said, "Would that I had died before this, and had been forgotten and out of sight!"
24. Then he cried unto her from below her, saying, "Grieve not! Your Lord has provided a stream of water under you."
25. "And shake the trunk of the date-palm towards you, it will let to fall upon you fresh ripe dates."
26. "So eat and drink and be glad, and if you see any human being, say: 'Verily! I have vowed a fast unto the Most Beneficent (Allah) so, this day, I shall not speak to any human.'"
27. Then she brought him (the baby) to her people, carrying him. They said, "O' Mary! Indeed you have brought a thing 'Fariya' (an unheard, mighty thing)."
28. "O' sister (i.e. the like) of Aaron [a pious man at the time of Mary (not the brother of Moses)]! Your father was not a man who used to commit adultery, nor was your mother an unchaste woman."
29. Then she pointed to him. They said: "How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle? "
30. "He (Jesus) said: Verily! I am a servant of Allah, He has given me the Scripture and made me a Prophet;"
31. "And He has made me blessed wheresoever I be, and has enjoined on me prayer, and charity, as long as I live."
32. "And (made me) dutiful to my mother, and did not make me arrogant, unblest.
33. "And peace be upon me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I shall be raised alive!"
34. Such is Jesus, son of Mary. (it is) a statement of truth, about which they doubt (or dispute).
35. It befits not (the Majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glorified (and Exalted be He above all that they associate with Him). When He decrees a thing, He only says to it, "Be!" and it is.
36. (Jesus) said: "And verily Allah is my Lord and your Lord. So worship Him (Alone). That is the Straight Path (Allah's Religion of Islamic Monotheism which He did ordain for all of His Prophets)."
37. Then the sects differed [i.e. the Christians about Jesus] so woe unto the disbelievers [those who gave false witness by saying that Jesus is the son of Allah] from the meeting of a Great Day.
38. How clearly will they (polytheists and disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah) see and hear, the Day when they will appear before Us! But the Zalimūn (polytheists and wrong-doers) today are in plain error.
39. And warn them (O' Muhammad ) of the Day of grief and regrets, when the case has been decided, while (now) they are in a state of carelessness, and they believe not.
40. Verily! We will inherit the earth and whatsoever is upon it. And to Us they shall all be returned.
(19:22-40)
28737. jexster - 11/2/2006 5:48:16 PM His Life, His Miracles and His Being Raised Up
48. And He (Allah) will teach him [Jesus] the Book and the Wisdom, (and) the Torah and the Gospel.
49. And will make him (Jesus) a Messenger to the Children of Israel (saying): "I have come to you with a sign from your Lord (Allah), that I fashion for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah's Leave; and I heal the blind one, and the leper, and I bring the dead to life by Allah's Leave. And I inform you of what you eat, and what you store in your houses. Surely, therein is a Sign for you, if you believe.
50. And I have come confirming what was before me of the Torah, and to make lawful to you part of what was forbidden to you, and I have come to you with a proof from your Lord. So fear Allah and obey me.
51. Truly! Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him (Alone). This is the Straight Path.
52. Then when Jesus came to know of their disbelief, he said: "Who will be my Helpers in Allah's Cause?" the Disciples said: "We are the Helpers of Allah; we believe in Allah, and bear witness that we are Muslims (we are submitting our selves to Allah)."
53. Our Lord! We believe in what You have sent down, and we follow the Messenger (Jesus); so write us down among those who bear witness (to the truth i.e. Lā ilāha ill-Allah - none has the right to be worshipped except Allah).
54. And they (the disbelievers) plotted (to kill Jesus) but Allah also planned. And Allah is the Best of the planners.
55. And (remember) when Allah said: "O' Jesus! I will take you and raise you to Myself and clear you (of the forged statement that Jesus is Allah's son) of those who disbelieve, and I will make those who follow you (the Monotheists, who worship none except Allah) superior to those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then you (all) will return to Me and I will judge between you in the matters in which you used to dispute."
On that last point, Islam's befuddlement and that of the Jews is strikingly similar. At the same time it is worth noting that Muslims are much closer to the Christian God than the Jews precisely because of their beliefs about Jesus, Mary, the Resurrection, the Last Days etc 28738. jexster - 11/2/2006 5:54:47 PM Thers is no Compulsion in Religion
19:64. Say (O' Muhammad): "O' people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians): Come to a word that is just between us and you, that we worship none except Allah, and that we associate no partners with Him, and that none of us shall take others as lords besides Allah. Then, if they turn away, say: "Bear witness that we are Muslims (we are submitting ourselves to Allah)."
"Strongest among men in enmity to the believers (Muslims) wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, 'We are Christians': because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant. (The Noble Quran, 5:82)"
{fucking Jews....5000 years - hemorrhoids on the asshole of mankind...can't live with em
Can't live with em]
28739. Jenerator - 11/3/2006 3:38:50 AM Jesus was a Jew, you "practicing" Catholic! 28740. wonkers2 - 11/3/2006 4:56:43 PM More hypocrisy from the evangelical pulpit. 28741. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 11/3/2006 5:18:22 PM FYI & Good Read Department:
Soldiers of Christ
Inside America's most powerful megachurch with Pastor Ted Haggard
28742. judithathome - 11/3/2006 6:45:32 PM Just read transcripts of voice mail over at my forum. Seems old Ted was addicted to meth. 28743. judithathome - 11/3/2006 6:47:42 PM You can see it HERE 28744. jexster - 11/5/2006 2:59:41 AM It would seem that those who criticize another's religion would at least firt make an honest effort to know something about it.
Here we have seen examples ad nauseum of persons doing exactly the opposite, condemning out of ignorance, bigotry, hate.
Those who care to know what they are talking about before they talk about it should watch Muhammad: The Legacy of a Prophet. Particularly moving and illuminating on many of the matters discussed here is found in the last 20 minutes in which Mohammed's Final Hajj Sermon on the Plain of Arafat is discussed.
In the sermon, Muhammed condemns the violence and tribal revenge killings that marked his life from birth. Muslim believe the Sermon to be a summary of the teachings of the Quran.
Those genuinely interest in learning before they speak should read a collection of essays by American Muslims:
How a Muslim Sees Muhammad
Michael Wolfe
A Muslim Cleric on the American Frontier
by Imam Sayed Hassan Al Qazwini
Of Muslims and Muhammad
by Azizah Al-Hibri
"The Best Speech is the Speech of Allah,
And the Best Guidance is the Guidance of Muhammad"
by Jameel William Aalim-Johnson
A Daughter of Detroit
by Najah Bazzy
My Journey in Islam
by Kevin James, Supervising Fire Marshal, FDNY
28745. jexster - 11/5/2006 3:14:16 AM The Final Sermon of the Prophet Muhammd
In essence, though not in substance, this Farewell Sermon of the Prophet is similar to the Jesus's Farewell Discourses in the Last Gospel.
Jesus Prays for All Believers
20"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: 23I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. 24"Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world. 25"Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. 26I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them."
John 13-1728746. jexster - 11/5/2006 3:41:19 AM Now that we've disposed of the last wave of bigotry, ignorance, hate, and hypocrisy, it is time for Judith's points!!!!
Haggard Case Fuels Debate Over Hypocrisy - 28747. Jenerator - 11/5/2006 3:55:30 AM I agree...I got into over on the Mote in American Politics with this woman who was agonizing over poor Ted..."he must have been totured by this wicked feelings; my heart aches for him; we should all pray for him" yada yada yada.
Yeah, right 28748. jexster - 11/5/2006 3:59:43 AM
Toys Jen toys
I know you're upset. Shall I put you on the Parish Weekly Intercession list - for The Sick? 28749. jexster - 11/5/2006 3:59:59 AM ;) 28750. winstonsmith - 11/5/2006 4:23:57 AM Really, it's as simple as this:
There are lots of religions and they can't all be right.
Gosh, I guess if you're really lucky, you might be born into a family that believes in the only true religion.
28751. concerned - 11/5/2006 6:54:25 AM Give me a break, Winston. 28752. concerned - 11/5/2006 7:03:46 AM I don't think you have shit worth reading on religion.
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