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28764. Jenerator - 11/5/2006 4:54:29 PM Here's what I said, that it's tragic. It IS a tragedy. It's terrible that his life has been marked by such a struggle with sin. The hurt and pain that he is no doubt going through and the hurt and pain that this is causing his friends, family and church must be incredible.
Everyone involved needs prayer and as I said, it was right of him to step down. I fully support church discipline too (and legal action if necessary) - a position I have consistently stood by for years.
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Now, where I differ from you and Jex is that 1.) I don't believe that Jones is a hero. I think he's bad too. A gay prostitute who hooks people up with dealers is not a paragon of virtue. Granted, he may not have been hiding his lifestyle of sin, but he's still fully immersed in sin. 2.) I believe that homosexuality is a sin. 3.)Believers are to have sober minds and drugs and illicit drugs inhibit the mind and are illegal - believers should not do drugs. 3.)I believe that this is a tragedy because it involves a respected person of the faith and one who was vocal about the positions that most Christians believe - sanctity of marriage, etc. 4.) I know that we are called to pray for one another and that we should, at the very least, pray for Haggard and all of the people this is influencing. And lastly, 5.) I don't think that this is anything worthy of delighting in. It is shameful to delight in a Christian's demise. 28765. jexster - 11/5/2006 6:40:06 PM For the Churched or unchurched who wanna a good laugh, now that Pastor Ted's gone the way of Tammy Faye and ORAL Roberts
I highly recommend Pastor Joel Osteen - watch on line
Have a laugh. Learn what Jen calls "christianity", and delight that God has exposed another of those hypocrites 28766. judithathome - 11/5/2006 7:00:25 PM Jen, you and I disagree about things. Let's leave it at that. You're entitled to your opinion about me just as I am about you. But don't try to imply things about me that are not true...I'm not addled just because I think you're full of yourself. As for lurking at Ruth's, dream on...I get enough of your secondhand platitudes here.
And just for the record, I don't think the guy who outed Haggard is a hero; never said that and never thought it. I think he was just sick of seeing someone get away with patent hypocrisy. I know how he feels. 28767. jexster - 11/5/2006 7:02:14 PM 
28768. judithathome - 11/5/2006 7:03:01 PM If you're not at church right now, praying for Ted, turn on CNN...he's just admitted it all...liar, deceiver, user of gay prostitues and drugs.
From his lips to God's ears. 28769. jexster - 11/5/2006 7:07:57 PM Good ole Baton Rouge redneck, snake chunker
But at least he wasn't a valued advisor to the President of the US
The Revelation of St. George
"God Instructed Me to Strike Saddam"
Lakewood Church - the Oasis of Love - is one of my favorites (next to Benny Hinn!)
Go there every Sunday I am in H'town
NOT
I go here
28770. jexster - 11/5/2006 7:10:27 PM Then he is a repentent sinner Judith and we shouldn't take delight in his problems but in the probles of Jen and St. George 28771. jexster - 11/5/2006 7:11:51 PM Oasis of Love
Yup betcha they have a fayhn tayhm on Sundays
Don't worry about indulgences Jen..
They come when you repent 28772. judithathome - 11/5/2006 7:22:32 PM Jen has others who agree with her:
"It's a political ploy by Satan himself and his minions to try and take the focus off the real issues of the election"...Wilson said when she walked into the sanctuary this morning, "I saw the Holy Spirit on the platform. I will miss and will always love Pastor Ted."
Link
28773. jexster - 11/5/2006 7:31:38 PM Catholicism and Fundamentalism:
The Attack on "Romanism" by "Bible" Christians
Karl Keating 28774. jexster - 11/5/2006 7:35:22 PM JAH...You nailed it.
The fundamental problem with the christian "fundamentalist" is that their religion is fundamentally idolatrous.
I saw another great example in Tom Brokaw's interview with Pastor Ted ..a re-run..
Without going into the painful detail of their beliefs (see links above), theirs is a shopkeepers' religion of sanctimoniiuos glorification of the self and is thus at its heart a scandalous heresy.
It is idolatrous. They do not walk in the way of the cross but in the way of the crass 28775. Jenerator - 11/5/2006 7:36:24 PM Both Judith and Jexster make up stuff as they go along. It's getting old refuting the lies. 28776. Jenerator - 11/5/2006 7:37:42 PM Jexster,
Joel Osteen didn't go to seminary and he says all sorts of things that I disagree with. He's a nice guy and he has attracted thousands of believers with his slogan-heavy teaching, BUT, I have serious concerns over the meat of what he teaches; namely, that it's not meaty. 28777. jexster - 11/5/2006 7:45:41 PM I LOVE the Oasis of Love..
Tease my bro about Joel all the time
But you'll be SHOCKED to know that Ole Joel comes on ever Sunday 8 am
KTVU 2
Oakland/SF
28778. Jenerator - 11/5/2006 7:45:47 PM One monumental difference between Haggard and Swaggert is that Haggard resigned immediately and is in compliance with all discipline. Swaggert, otoh, insisted upon staying as pastor and didn't submit to discipline.
This is all so sad. 28779. judithathome - 11/5/2006 8:41:54 PM Baptists Thinking of Boycotting WalMart
They will probably decide to stage a full-on boycott and stick to it about as well as they did to the Disney one...mouth to the world that they are doing it but still go there to shop. Maybe they'll go to their WalMart not in their neighborhoods but seriously, they will still shop at the one thwo or three neighborhoods over. Grumbling prayers to Jesus the entire time. 28780. judithathome - 11/5/2006 11:51:22 PM Jen, here is a thoughtful post from Steve Shack over at Demonizinf Religion...you knoe Steve, I think, and may be comforted by his kind words:
Ted Haggard's Apology
"The fact is I am guilty of sexual immorality. And I take responsibility for the entire problem. I am a deceiver and a liar. There's a part of my life that is so repulsive and dark that I have been warring against it for all of my adult life," he said.
What I wonder is if Rev. Haggard can correctly identify what the "repulsive and dark" part of his life is. I would imagine that he would come to the wrong conclusion that it's his same sex attraction which is the "repulsive and dark" part. In his world, the "temptation" of gay sex is, if you listen to the leaders of the political religious evangelical right, is among the MOST heinous of "sins." If Haggard had been with a woman, I guarantee you that they would still put him on some kind of leave, but he'd eventually be invited back.
But now that they know he was having -- horrors -- gay sex, there will be no return to this pulpit. If he chooses to continue in a heterosexual lifestyle, he will probably run off for awhile, start preaching in a tiny congregation somewhere and try to rebuild what he had before. But it will never approach what he had before. The evangelical right has no pity nor love for "homosexuals." Even in the Exodus International organization, the leaders are, inevitably, males who are married to females. The stories of the celibates are hidden away. Even Randy Thomas, who achieved some modicum of attention as a lobbyist, who dedicated his life to celibacy, has suddenly turn up with what he refers to as "the girlfriend." (I have no problem with Randy having a girlfriend. I just notice that his pledge to celibacy went out the window rather easily once he got tired of having no intimate relationship in his life.)
No. Rev. Haggard will probably jump to the exact wrong conclusion about what, in his life, is "repulsive and dark." But, just in case he wants my opinion, I can help him with this. What's repulsive and dark is when someone is a hypocrite, who is same sex attracted, engages in impersonal sex which he bought and paid for, and then turns around and tells the world how "evil" homosexuality is. Who betrays his fellow same sex attracted human beings by using his weekly meetings with the White House to push for anti-gay legislation. Who appears before children and young people, telling them that God hates their same sex attraction.
What repulsive and dark is the theology that convinced him he needed to convince everyone he was a heterosexual. Who married a woman, had five kids, and has now humiliated them because he didn't know that there is absolutely nothing spiritually wrong with being a gay man.
Who knows what's going to happen? Frankly, I think he should admit that he's gay, confess that he did his fellow gay people wrong, work for legal equality, and also work with his wife to decide how they're going to deal with the fact that he's not just gay, but a liar and a cheat. He could choose to stay with the family, for instance and raise his kids, holding off on any other personal relationships until they are out of the house. He could go into "change therapy," which doesn't work but, hey, it'll give him a chance to tell the truth to someone.
I look at his story and realize that I could very easily have been in his same position. When I was young and going to Baptist College, I was looking for a wife. I dated girls. I tried fooling myself and praying to God and doing all the right things. Luckily, I had more personal integrity than that. I didn't know what "gay" meant, and I knew no other gay people, but I knew I couldn't marry someone I wasn't attracted to, or couldn't love.
Looking past all the politics and lies, I have been trying to just put myself in Rev. Haggard's shoes and see him as a human being caught in a terrible situation. I think that's the most compassionate position and it's the one that I'm most comfortable with. Others will unleash venom. Others will laugh and jeer (as I have already done, I'm sad to confess). But, beneath all the betrayals and political opinions and cultural disconnects, he and his wife and his kids are nothing less and nothing more than human beings. I cannot imagine how much pain they must be in. Probably almost as much pain as all the gay kids who heard his words telling them how much God hated who they were. Probably as much pain as any gay partner barred from his or her lover's hospital room because of the laws established by, and encouraged by the political power of the Ted Haggards of the world.
There's a lot of pain to go around. And Rev. Haggard's personal pain is probably the least of it all. I'm glad he apologized to his church.
Now, when does he apologize to the rest of us?
28781. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 11/5/2006 11:52:26 PM The best one minute Jesus impersonation I've ever seen!
28782. wonkers2 - 11/6/2006 12:15:39 AM Evangelical Pastor Cofesses to "Sexual Immorality 28783. Jenerator - 11/6/2006 1:42:08 AM Jen, here is a thoughtful post from Steve Shack over at Demonizinf Religion...you knoe Steve, I think, and may be comforted by his kind words:
*I* am not the one who needs to be comforted Judith. Get over yourself.
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