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29090. jexster - 9/21/2008 11:39:21 PM toys 29091. jexster - 9/21/2008 11:50:26 PM The simplistic version, from reading you two, boils down to
I can't speak for Jen but that IS quite simplistic!
Catholics: big into Mary and the holy trinity
Protestants: all about Christ, not so much about Mary
(See above)
Catholics: pro-life, period
Protestants: pro-life, depending on the circumstances
Catholics: anti birth control
Protestants: pro birth control, depending
Both: anti sex-education in schools(NO!)
Now THAT is a good illustration of how, to outsiders, the US political debate substitutes for a statement of faith! You'd think Christianity was all about abortion, birth control and homos. Just take a look at the Table of Contents of the RC Catechism to get a flavor of just HOW simplistic! Note the entire first part is based on the Nicene Creed. The 7 Sacraments - Part II. Life in Christ Part III
Catholics: regular confession
Protestants: no formal confession
Both: death-bed conversion is good enough for eternal salvation
One baptism for the remission of sins (the Creed)
Confessional prot churches have "formal" but "general confessions". Auricular confession (confessional w/ priest) is optional, not for Roman Catholics 29092. jexster - 9/21/2008 11:54:49 PM Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Anglican, and creedal prots also follow a formal Liturgical Calendar (beginning with Advent) and share a common lectionary
I don't think but I do not know for sure that COGIC's Assemblies of God and other wacko prots..baptists..do 29093. jexster - 9/21/2008 11:59:00 PM All that "Mary stuff" comes in here:
I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic church,
the communion of saints,...
[Apostle's (Baptismal)Creed]29094. wabbit - 9/22/2008 12:02:08 AM Jen,
In the scriptures it's made very clear that apart from Christ man is not saved. However, it's ultimately up to God to judge each man's heart. In the meantime, we Christians are called to love on and share the word with nonbelievers if possible. Thanks, this is exactly the kind of thing that I was looking for, and that I find confusing. I get to have regular discussion with the local JW's, and have many friends who are Catholic or think of themselves as Christians, but try as I might, I can't get this straight in my mind.
Perhaps I'm dense, but it seems you must take Christ as your personal savior in order to be saved, *except* if God deems you worthy of saving, even if you are a non-believer. So how are you to know? Suppose I try to be the best person I can be, I live by the Golden Rule, but I am an atheist? I'm going to hell, by Christian thought, yes? So however I live my life, it really doesn't matter.
It sounds like the abortion debate to me - you (the royal you, not necessarily YOU specifically) are pro-choice or anti-choice, how can there be exceptions? The unborn have no say in how or by whom they were conceived, so I've never understood the exceptions. If the mother's life is in danger, so be it. If she was raped, or a victim of incest, how can that be used as an excuse to kill an unborn life, if that is your belief?
I do think that there is more in common than not, but the differences seem to cause real problems, between all religions. I just wanted to pick your respective brains while you were having the discussion.29095. jexster - 9/22/2008 12:04:40 AM The Apostles' Creed - The basic creed of "Reformed churches", as most familiarly known, is called the Apostles' Creed. It has received this title because of its great antiquity; it dates from very early times in the Church, a half century or so from the last writings of the New Testament.
29096. jexster - 9/22/2008 12:09:43 AM Perhaps I'm dense, but it seems you must take Christ as your personal savior in order to be saved, *except* if God deems you worthy of saving, even if you are a non-believer
In Catholic teaching God wills ALL people to be saved AND that this will only happen through the Church Triumphant (what exactly that means is a subject of intense theological debate even among Roman Catholic theologians, the most extreme recent statement being Cardinal Ratzinger's DECLARATION: "DOMINUS IESUS"
ON THE UNICITY AND SALVIFIC UNIVERSALITY
OF JESUS CHRIST AND THE CHURCH
Kinda angels on the head of a pin stuff to me personally 29097. jexster - 9/22/2008 12:11:24 AM But Jen is not substantially better off than Osama Bin Laden - short version
She was baptized...that's about it...her immortal soul is in serious peril of the Last Judgement 29098. jexster - 9/22/2008 12:13:33 AM Note that Paragraph 1 of Dominus Iesus contains the Apostles' Creed verbatim 29099. jexster - 9/22/2008 12:14:26 AM err Nicene Creed 29100. wabbit - 9/22/2008 12:17:48 AM Jexster, really, I'm not trying to be provocative, I'm just trying to sort it out. As I said, I'm not looking for your personal take on what Catholicism is to you, and I deliberately left out the anti-homosexual debate. I'm more looking for the stricter by-the-book version. I understand that your personal pov is going to color how you interpret your religion, and I respect that from both you and Jen, it just isn't what I'm trying to get at. I was merely using the above as some examples of where there seem to be different interpretations of the scriptures, not trying to be comprehensive. Perhaps my examples aren't even relevant — hence, my query.
I was actually raised as a Yiddish spouting Lutheran (that German/Russian background, ya know), but opted out fairly early when I was old enough to know what a Sunday Christian was. I've not been able to be a member of any organized religious group since. Maybe I was too young to understand the confessional aspects.
Not for lack of interest, mind you, but I guess I don't have the kind of faith required. 29101. wabbit - 9/22/2008 12:20:51 AM x-post, Jexster. Your 29095-99 are what I'm looking for.
Thank you both for taking the time to post on this, I find it very interesting and I have so many questions. Your tolerance is much appreciated. 29102. jexster - 9/22/2008 12:37:21 AM I was trying NOT to give you a personal view of Catholicism but when you think about it, that is not possible..not even for the Pope or especially not for him ;) 29103. jexster - 9/22/2008 12:39:46 AM Not for lack of interest, mind you, but I guess I don't have the kind of faith required.
Not true! Don't be intimidated by the dogma...faith is before anything a personal call..the rest just comes or not...that's what's so fascinating to me about the Catholic faith...
It's really not all that complicated except that's how it gets 29104. jexster - 9/22/2008 12:44:09 AM Jen also misstates Catholic teaching on confession...
seriously misstates ...I won't go into details..Confession in Catholic understanding is a corporate act ie of the whole church to the whole church....The priest is not an "intermediary". The priest is the Church..given the power to bind and loose by Jesus..Only God forgives sins 29105. wabbit - 9/22/2008 12:45:03 AM Yes, that's what it seems like to me, it's all filtered through our respective personal lens. I was wondering if I was completely out in Dickie's meadow or if that's just the way things are.
Geez, if I'm not channeling Monty Python, I'm channeling Babe. Sorry about that ;)
And again, thank you both for your patience and willingness to explain the variant points of view. I'm sure I'm not the only one interested. 29106. jexster - 9/22/2008 12:45:37 AM Reconciliation with the Church is inseparable from reconciliation with God. 29107. wabbit - 9/22/2008 12:46:22 AM Some day I'll post a photo of my hands, which will go a long way toward explaining why my posts are always playing catch-up!
Meanwhile, I will continue to impose on everyone's patience! 29108. wabbit - 9/22/2008 12:48:05 AM Jexster, re: 29106, this is another question for me. Is it impossible to have a belief in God that is separate from participating in a formal ceremony? Or is this the royal "church", as in the royal "we"? 29109. jexster - 9/22/2008 12:49:47 AM The Roman Church has a rather structured process they call Rite of Christian Initiation as an Adult (RCIA)
This slideshow makes my point 21903 very well..much better than I did
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