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29095. jexster - 9/22/2008 12:04:40 AM The Apostles' Creed - The basic creed of "Reformed churches", as most familiarly known, is called the Apostles' Creed. It has received this title because of its great antiquity; it dates from very early times in the Church, a half century or so from the last writings of the New Testament.
29096. jexster - 9/22/2008 12:09:43 AM Perhaps I'm dense, but it seems you must take Christ as your personal savior in order to be saved, *except* if God deems you worthy of saving, even if you are a non-believer
In Catholic teaching God wills ALL people to be saved AND that this will only happen through the Church Triumphant (what exactly that means is a subject of intense theological debate even among Roman Catholic theologians, the most extreme recent statement being Cardinal Ratzinger's DECLARATION: "DOMINUS IESUS"
ON THE UNICITY AND SALVIFIC UNIVERSALITY
OF JESUS CHRIST AND THE CHURCH
Kinda angels on the head of a pin stuff to me personally 29097. jexster - 9/22/2008 12:11:24 AM But Jen is not substantially better off than Osama Bin Laden - short version
She was baptized...that's about it...her immortal soul is in serious peril of the Last Judgement 29098. jexster - 9/22/2008 12:13:33 AM Note that Paragraph 1 of Dominus Iesus contains the Apostles' Creed verbatim 29099. jexster - 9/22/2008 12:14:26 AM err Nicene Creed 29100. wabbit - 9/22/2008 12:17:48 AM Jexster, really, I'm not trying to be provocative, I'm just trying to sort it out. As I said, I'm not looking for your personal take on what Catholicism is to you, and I deliberately left out the anti-homosexual debate. I'm more looking for the stricter by-the-book version. I understand that your personal pov is going to color how you interpret your religion, and I respect that from both you and Jen, it just isn't what I'm trying to get at. I was merely using the above as some examples of where there seem to be different interpretations of the scriptures, not trying to be comprehensive. Perhaps my examples aren't even relevant — hence, my query.
I was actually raised as a Yiddish spouting Lutheran (that German/Russian background, ya know), but opted out fairly early when I was old enough to know what a Sunday Christian was. I've not been able to be a member of any organized religious group since. Maybe I was too young to understand the confessional aspects.
Not for lack of interest, mind you, but I guess I don't have the kind of faith required. 29101. wabbit - 9/22/2008 12:20:51 AM x-post, Jexster. Your 29095-99 are what I'm looking for.
Thank you both for taking the time to post on this, I find it very interesting and I have so many questions. Your tolerance is much appreciated. 29102. jexster - 9/22/2008 12:37:21 AM I was trying NOT to give you a personal view of Catholicism but when you think about it, that is not possible..not even for the Pope or especially not for him ;) 29103. jexster - 9/22/2008 12:39:46 AM Not for lack of interest, mind you, but I guess I don't have the kind of faith required.
Not true! Don't be intimidated by the dogma...faith is before anything a personal call..the rest just comes or not...that's what's so fascinating to me about the Catholic faith...
It's really not all that complicated except that's how it gets 29104. jexster - 9/22/2008 12:44:09 AM Jen also misstates Catholic teaching on confession...
seriously misstates ...I won't go into details..Confession in Catholic understanding is a corporate act ie of the whole church to the whole church....The priest is not an "intermediary". The priest is the Church..given the power to bind and loose by Jesus..Only God forgives sins 29105. wabbit - 9/22/2008 12:45:03 AM Yes, that's what it seems like to me, it's all filtered through our respective personal lens. I was wondering if I was completely out in Dickie's meadow or if that's just the way things are.
Geez, if I'm not channeling Monty Python, I'm channeling Babe. Sorry about that ;)
And again, thank you both for your patience and willingness to explain the variant points of view. I'm sure I'm not the only one interested. 29106. jexster - 9/22/2008 12:45:37 AM Reconciliation with the Church is inseparable from reconciliation with God. 29107. wabbit - 9/22/2008 12:46:22 AM Some day I'll post a photo of my hands, which will go a long way toward explaining why my posts are always playing catch-up!
Meanwhile, I will continue to impose on everyone's patience! 29108. wabbit - 9/22/2008 12:48:05 AM Jexster, re: 29106, this is another question for me. Is it impossible to have a belief in God that is separate from participating in a formal ceremony? Or is this the royal "church", as in the royal "we"? 29109. jexster - 9/22/2008 12:49:47 AM The Roman Church has a rather structured process they call Rite of Christian Initiation as an Adult (RCIA)
This slideshow makes my point 21903 very well..much better than I did 29110. jexster - 9/22/2008 12:54:26 AM An individual catholic christian is one part of a Body by baptism ...both individual and corporate..part of a body of believers which transcends time...both individual AND corporate, the one inseperable, even meaningless, without the other dimension..
Corpus Christi - Body of Christ 29111. jexster - 9/22/2008 12:57:31 AM Nicene Creed ..with pictures!
29112. Jenerator - 9/22/2008 1:08:02 AM wabbit
I would say the fundamental difference between Roman Catholicism and Protestantism is the basis of authority:
Roman Catholics, as is quite evident by jexter's posts, believe that the Church (i.e. the Roman Catholic hierarchy) is the source of all authority, not to mention the source of grace through the various sacraments meted out by the clergy.
Protestants believe in God's Word, namely the Bible, as the ultimate authority. We believe that God gave us his devinely inspired Holy Scriptures to use as a light and a path.
Protestant denominational differences have to do more with church organization and style of worship than with doctrinal differences, in general. Also there are different points of emphasis among denominations, i.e some are more evangelical while others emphasize social gospel.
29113. jexster - 9/22/2008 1:15:24 AM Roman Catholics, as is quite evident by jexter's posts, believe that the Church (i.e. the Roman Catholic hierarchy) is the source of all authority, not to mention the source of grace through the various sacraments meted out by the clergy.
If Jen wants to tell us what Roman Catholics believe, that's certainly her prerogative. I try not to talk about things I know little or nothing about
Jen apparently feels no such compunction. 29114. jexster - 9/22/2008 1:18:13 AM The beliefs of the Reformed Protestant Churches are found in the Apostles Creed .....and in the Catholic and Orthodox Churches (as well as in the Lutheran Church) those beliefs as amplified by the Council of Nicea.
Now phrases like "meted out" are so obviously perjorative, that they are unworthy of being accepted
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