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29189. jexster - 9/23/2008 12:39:35 AM NeedTobreathe: Washed by the Water
Seth is a little Christian Rocker dreamboat..hehehehe 29190. anomie - 9/23/2008 1:51:45 AM Wabbit... Assuming anyone can join this fight, my 2 cents: Jen skirted the fundamental issue of catholic church authority verses individual interpretation and relationship with the divine, but I think more needs to be said. Catholic authority ultimately comes from God and flows through the church with the understanding that God will honor the relationship to the extent that the church can be the vehicle of salvation. Protestants, OTOH believe (wrongly) that they have their own cozy little relationship and their own inspired wisdom to interpret scripture, but they deceive themselves. What they really do is obey and spout the doctrines they have been taught in a way very similar to Catholics (or to cults - yes Jen). The difference is that after scolding you they don't take responsibilty for any soul but their own.
As seen here, Jen is so sure of her "interpretations" that she feels quite comfortable pointing out the error of two thousand years of Catholic scholarship and doctrine. Now, if it is true that we must have our own personal relationship with God instead of relying on church doctrine for salvation, then how does Jen KNOW that anyone else is wrong. The only way she COULD know is if she thought HER reading of the bible (as I have said before the bible can be an idol), was superior to a real living God working either within a person or through a church.
(I could be wrong, but I don't think the Catholic church idolizes the bible in the same way some protestants do.) 29191. anomie - 9/23/2008 1:55:10 AM Jen? Is everything you say here, (your interpretations) as true and infallible as the scripture you say it is from? If your answer is yes, would you mind answering a few questions about some of the claims you've made? 29192. Jenerator - 9/23/2008 2:03:07 AM Anomie,
Why don't you begin your scrutiny with the Catholic Church's stance on the Immaculate Conception. Perhaps YOU can find the scriptures that claim that Mary was born without sin, lived a life without sin, and died a virgin (despite having children with Joseph).
29193. jexster - 9/23/2008 2:09:24 AM If Anomie wants to find the scriptural sources for Catholic teaching begin with the Catechism and move to Redemptoris Mater.
Or rely on what Jen tells you about Catholic teaching
No brainer
29194. jexster - 9/23/2008 2:13:40 AM Her problem is that she MUST talk about Catholic teaching because she cannot speak of Protestant teaching.
There is no such thing.
There is a reason that there are so many prot sects. Each splits from the other in a process that began with Calvin and Luther and continues to this day
Of most current interest, Sarah Palin's church has been declared heretical by the Assemblies of God!
Speaking of splinters
Divisions within Protestant Christianity
29195. jexster - 9/23/2008 2:20:32 AM The problem this causes Jen should by now be obvious - she cannot intelligently discuss Catholic Faith because she defines herself against it 29196. anomie - 9/23/2008 2:31:30 AM Jen! You're cool and charming but if you haven't noticed, I'm not on your side. And anyway, afaic, the Church doesn't need scripture to justify their traditions or doctrines. You protestants are the ones who keep going back to the dead idol (the bible) to read the tea stains, or entrails or whatever you use to come up with your latest doctrinal fads and fancies. Last I looked, Catholics believe in a living God, not a dead book. 29197. wonkers2 - 9/23/2008 2:33:54 AM A Roman Catholic friend said tonight that St. Thomas taught that life begins at baptism, not at conception. What's the origin of the current dogma that life begins at conception? And is it true that at one time the Catholic doctrine was that life begin when the fetus is mature enough to survive outside the womb? 29198. anomie - 9/23/2008 2:37:29 AM And just to take note, Jen, you, like most protestants (Kuligin, et al), never own up to your claims. I won't hold my breath for an answer as to how perfect your religious advice and opinions are. Your knowing the mind of God is pure pretense. Anyone can read a book. 29199. Jenerator - 9/23/2008 12:42:05 PM Jexster,
It's called the New Testament. Find scriptural evidence that Mary was born sinless and remained a virgin her entire life from the New Testament. 29200. iiibbb - 9/23/2008 1:01:34 PM Speaking as a Protestant (Presbyterian background) who doesn't go to church much... I do subscribe to Luther's concept of sola fide. A relationship with God doesn't require the church... but if Catholics want to go about it that way that doesn't negate their relationship with God either.
I just think there's no knowing what God's thinking. Although, there's a lot of people with opinions on the matter... 29201. Jenerator - 9/23/2008 1:06:51 PM Message # 29196 makes no sense, Anomie.
So the Catholic Church doesn't need the scriptures to back up its doctrines now?
That would definitely explain why it believes that Mary was born sinless like Christ and that people like you will go to purgatory!
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Jexster,
I have defended myself many times over the years. I just want you to find support within the Bible that Mary was born sinless and remained a virgin her entire life while having other children with Joseph.
Not the Catechism, not Pius' writings, the SCRIPTURES.
Defend your belief with scriptural evidence, 29202. Jenerator - 9/23/2008 1:09:38 PM What I am asking for is fair, so quit the hysterics. 29203. anomie - 9/23/2008 3:52:32 PM Jen, it makes perfect sense, but you are so caught up in your doctrines and dogmas that, like a cult member, you can't see clearly outside your own preconceptions. You didn't come up with your views by simply reading the bible. You were indoctrinated into a whole set of views and beliefs that are extra-biblical. You didn't get these beliefs from the bible, but from other people...a church, so to speak. A church with it's own traditions and extra-biblical practices and orthodoxies.
I find it particularly telling that you don't even seem to grasp the concept of a living God who might be active in his one church - a church which relies on the authority of said God rather than the bible. But it's true, Jen. Catholics believe in God and the church, not the bible. They do not idolize it the way protestants do. And so, yes, they can legitimize doctrines and sacraments without reference to the old or new testaments. But you see, protestants do the same thing with two differences: They don't admit it, and they don't take responsibilty for their fellow souls. Protestantism is a lonely and risky business where God is concerned, according to you. At least Catholics have the courage to put their faith on the line for the whole church.
And just as a curiosity, do you even get the irony involved in accepting the canon as approved by the Catholic church, while rejecting its authority as the true church?
These things are so simple to grasp I have to think you are pulling my leg at times. 29204. wabbit - 9/23/2008 4:06:41 PM Message # 29188
Jen, so essentially, as long as you repent, even at the last minute, you are saved. It's like telling two children to behave and they will get candy at the end of the day. One behaves, the other doesn't, and the one who doesn't gets less candy, but still gets candy. It doesn't seem that there is any real imperative to be a good person in this life.
re: Mary being a virgin all her life — I always thought that honorific was about the birth of Jesus. Also, isn't it possible that the brothers of Jesus were half-brothers or cousins? Weren't the apostles referred to as Jesus' brothers? Does everything one believes need to be explicit in the NT in order for it to be valid?
Message # 29190
anomie, thank you, that helps clarify the authority question I had. 29205. anomie - 9/23/2008 4:56:57 PM Jen, you ask, "So the Catholic Church doesn't need the scriptures to back up its doctrines now?"
Tell me when it EVER did need scripture to formulate doctrines, creeds and sacraments? The Catholic church decided what scripture IS! 29206. judithathome - 9/23/2008 10:12:31 PM Ah Judith, with your usual great contribution to the discussion.
Yes, and you still haven't answered my question: why does Jexster have to stand before Christ when it is God who has the final say? After all, Christ is just an agent of the one true God, is he not? He didn't become God...if that is so, why bother with what God thinks? Just concentrate on making JC happy.
And yes, yes, I read all that about "son of God in human form" but in the end, GOD is the doorman to heaven...people get in on his say-so, right? He's the decider.
29207. anomie - 9/23/2008 10:35:22 PM I don't speak for Jen, but most "trinitarians" believe Jesus IS God. The distinction is not so much in the person but the personality. Besides, Jen rarely answers questions anyway. 29208. vonKreedon - 9/23/2008 11:01:27 PM Jen asks, IMO, a fair question as to what source documents there are for allegation that Mary was without sin. Since Jen is a Protestant Fundamentalist the only valid source documents are the Old and New Testaments and there does not appear to be any foundation in those docs for the belief that Mary was without sin. So the Catholic doctrine of the Blessed Virgin is not Biblically based, well, other than the Virgin Birth bit, but rather part of the ongoing divine revelation to various saints and Popes.
Certainly the Catholics can come to their beliefs as they wish, as can the Protestants, but Jen's question is clear and fair.
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