|
29330. Jenerator - 10/23/2008 8:08:50 PM "Mary invites us to join her"
Jexster, where does Christ figure into your worship? 29331. Jenerator - 10/23/2008 8:11:49 PM "The Holy Spirit asks us to imitate the faith and love of Mary..."
MARIOLOGY! Marian veneration! Mary worship!
29332. jexster - 10/23/2008 8:17:06 PM Election Novena -For Faithful Citizens 10 Videos
Novena for the Faithful Citizens
also known as "The Election Novena" 29333. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 10/23/2008 8:17:19 PM I don't consider him a source of truth.
How could you, Jen--you think bronze-age fantasies written by paternalistic morons are THE source of truth. 29334. Jenerator - 10/23/2008 8:22:21 PM You're right in that I do not hold Maher up to same level as scripture. 29335. anomie - 10/23/2008 10:09:38 PM Jen, I can't imagine what you would debate Maher about, but it led me to be curious about your views of the church. Did God (Christ, etc) establish a church on earth? If so, what authority or duties does that church have?
And just so you know my train of thought... If there is no church, no authority, then it follows that each individual can establish his own relationship with God, which would necessarily include his own interpretation (or even acceptance) of scripture. Which would in the end, make any of your criticisms meaningless since you would have no authority over another's relationship with God.
I trust I didn't confuse things by trying to make the argument so transparent. But I'm not trying to win a point so much as trying to determine whether you understand the implications of your own views and understand how you deal with inconsistencies. 29336. anomie - 10/24/2008 1:32:06 AM Jen, followup in anticipation of parts of your reply... I know you accept certain orthodoxies of protestant theology, (Some say essentials of faith), so before you explain these, let me ask...Do you accept these (or believe these) as an individual, on your own authority, or one-on-one with God? Or do you accept these as part of a larger community, or group, or church, that sanctions your beliefs, (and thus sanctions your salvation)? 29337. Jenerator - 10/24/2008 2:45:20 PM Did God (Christ, etc) establish a church on earth? If so, what authority or duties does that church have?
Good questions. Well, Protestants believe that the body of believers constitutes Christ's 'church'. As far as God claiming that one denomination/branch is the exclusive, sanctioned church, I do not believe that. Now, as an institution, church must have its primary focus on serving Christ and being in his will. Through careful study, teaching, discipleship, fellowship and missionary work, I believe that any Christian church can fulfill its duties in equipping believers. Churches must remain accountable and should be scrutinized to ensure that they are, in fact, studying, teaching, discipling, fellowshiping and serving others Biblically.
29338. pelty - 10/24/2008 3:30:56 PM Hi Jen,
I tend to lurk, but someone like Maher deserves public contempt as he carries the intellectual heft of the pumpkin sitting in my window, yet is treated as an authentic commentator on serious issues. He is boring, but only slightly more so than the fawning Chris Matthews. 29339. anomie - 10/24/2008 3:53:50 PM Jen, why can't you ever give a clear answer? I can only surmise your answer is "no, God did not establish a church on earth". But somewhere along a vague, unmentioned timeline..."Protestants believe..."...which is an answer to an entirely different question. Your entire response is also unbiblical and impersonal. But just to pursue the obvious...Do protestants believe this based on bible verses, as a collective, or does each individual believe in this "body of believers" by way of a personal revelation? And, can you identify other members of the body by divination, or by a quiz on doctrine, or do you just take their word for it?
Your thinking on this whole subject is kind of like fuzzy theology so far. 29340. vonKreedon - 10/24/2008 4:13:50 PM Anomie - It seems to me that Jen gave a clear and complete answer to your question. Perhaps the answer is not as simplistic as you would like, but that's not really your call. 29341. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 10/24/2008 4:15:25 PM Oooh, anomie--bullseye!
Pelty- It seems obvious that Maher gets under your skin, but I don't see you addressing his core argument--which tells me that you're focusing on his style while ignoring the logic of his conclusions. 29342. vonKreedon - 10/24/2008 4:16:22 PM Whiz, go ahead an layout Maher's argument as you see it. 29343. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 10/24/2008 4:20:04 PM Whiz?
As in discharging urine? 29344. wonkers2 - 10/24/2008 4:38:28 PM Pelty, have you actually seen Maher's movie? Your criticism would be more credible if you watched the movie before criticizing it! Ditto for Jen. Maher is a clever guy. He made mincemeat of the Muslim, Catholic, Jewish, Evangelical, et al, interviewees in his movie. While it's true that he didn't interview anyone from Harvard Divinity School or the Vatican (he was thrown out of the Vatican), the movie was very funny. 29345. anomie - 10/24/2008 5:24:57 PM VK, you must be kidding. Sure, Jen said some things, but she didn't answer the simple question. I didn't ask her what protestants believe. Nice words about what church's should do, but again, it doesn't mean anything without answering the primary question, which again is: Did God establish a church on earth and if so, what is it's authority and duty?
Note again, I did not ask what protestants believe or what the "focus" of an unauthorative body of believers should be. 29346. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 10/24/2008 5:50:42 PM Maher's argument, as I see it, is that religion is essentially a mental paradigm that is based on archaic fantasy and myth. And that, historically, more harm has been done in the world in the name of religions than good. Hence, basing all of one's decisions on faith, superstition or fear of God's wrath is ridculous.
Relligion+ridiculous=Religulous!
I didn't see Pelty's critique of Maher as one based on anything other than as a distaste for his style. 29347. anomie - 10/24/2008 6:08:58 PM I like Maher, but he does have a smirk of sorts that can turn people off. But he's gutsy. Takes courage to be an agnostic while trying to make a living in showbiz. 29348. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 10/24/2008 6:35:09 PM I agree, anomie, he has paid the price for his outspokeness. Maher can be a rabidly agnostic, close-minded and unreasonable at times, but I have yet to see someone polk holes in the logic of his argument wrt religions' dangerous effects on the world. 29349. vonKreedon - 10/24/2008 7:15:39 PM Anomie - As I read you question...well to quote, "Did God (Christ, etc) establish a church on earth? If so, what authority or duties does that church have?"
Jen answered, "Well, Protestants believe that the body of believers constitutes Christ's 'church'. As far as God claiming that one denomination/branch is the exclusive, sanctioned church, I do not believe that. Now, as an institution, church must have its primary focus on serving Christ and being in his will."
You seem to be chiding her for saying "Protestant's believe" rather than "I believe." But Jen is a Protestant, so I don't think it is asking too much of us to read that Jen so believes. You task her for, "Nice words about what church's should do, but again, it doesn't mean anything without answering the primary question, which again is: Did God establish a church on earth and if so, what is it's authority and duty?" But Jen, IMO, answers your question quite clearly, God did not establish any one institution to be "The Church", but rather that the community of believers, the Umma as the Muslims say about theirs, is the church established by the Christ. She then goes on to say that she believes that the institutional churches have a responsibility to foster an understanding of God's will as expressed in scripture. Seems a clear and complete answer to your question to me.
|
