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29338. pelty - 10/24/2008 3:30:56 PM Hi Jen,
I tend to lurk, but someone like Maher deserves public contempt as he carries the intellectual heft of the pumpkin sitting in my window, yet is treated as an authentic commentator on serious issues. He is boring, but only slightly more so than the fawning Chris Matthews. 29339. anomie - 10/24/2008 3:53:50 PM Jen, why can't you ever give a clear answer? I can only surmise your answer is "no, God did not establish a church on earth". But somewhere along a vague, unmentioned timeline..."Protestants believe..."...which is an answer to an entirely different question. Your entire response is also unbiblical and impersonal. But just to pursue the obvious...Do protestants believe this based on bible verses, as a collective, or does each individual believe in this "body of believers" by way of a personal revelation? And, can you identify other members of the body by divination, or by a quiz on doctrine, or do you just take their word for it?
Your thinking on this whole subject is kind of like fuzzy theology so far. 29340. vonKreedon - 10/24/2008 4:13:50 PM Anomie - It seems to me that Jen gave a clear and complete answer to your question. Perhaps the answer is not as simplistic as you would like, but that's not really your call. 29341. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 10/24/2008 4:15:25 PM Oooh, anomie--bullseye!
Pelty- It seems obvious that Maher gets under your skin, but I don't see you addressing his core argument--which tells me that you're focusing on his style while ignoring the logic of his conclusions. 29342. vonKreedon - 10/24/2008 4:16:22 PM Whiz, go ahead an layout Maher's argument as you see it. 29343. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 10/24/2008 4:20:04 PM Whiz?
As in discharging urine? 29344. wonkers2 - 10/24/2008 4:38:28 PM Pelty, have you actually seen Maher's movie? Your criticism would be more credible if you watched the movie before criticizing it! Ditto for Jen. Maher is a clever guy. He made mincemeat of the Muslim, Catholic, Jewish, Evangelical, et al, interviewees in his movie. While it's true that he didn't interview anyone from Harvard Divinity School or the Vatican (he was thrown out of the Vatican), the movie was very funny. 29345. anomie - 10/24/2008 5:24:57 PM VK, you must be kidding. Sure, Jen said some things, but she didn't answer the simple question. I didn't ask her what protestants believe. Nice words about what church's should do, but again, it doesn't mean anything without answering the primary question, which again is: Did God establish a church on earth and if so, what is it's authority and duty?
Note again, I did not ask what protestants believe or what the "focus" of an unauthorative body of believers should be. 29346. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 10/24/2008 5:50:42 PM Maher's argument, as I see it, is that religion is essentially a mental paradigm that is based on archaic fantasy and myth. And that, historically, more harm has been done in the world in the name of religions than good. Hence, basing all of one's decisions on faith, superstition or fear of God's wrath is ridculous.
Relligion+ridiculous=Religulous!
I didn't see Pelty's critique of Maher as one based on anything other than as a distaste for his style. 29347. anomie - 10/24/2008 6:08:58 PM I like Maher, but he does have a smirk of sorts that can turn people off. But he's gutsy. Takes courage to be an agnostic while trying to make a living in showbiz. 29348. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 10/24/2008 6:35:09 PM I agree, anomie, he has paid the price for his outspokeness. Maher can be a rabidly agnostic, close-minded and unreasonable at times, but I have yet to see someone polk holes in the logic of his argument wrt religions' dangerous effects on the world. 29349. vonKreedon - 10/24/2008 7:15:39 PM Anomie - As I read you question...well to quote, "Did God (Christ, etc) establish a church on earth? If so, what authority or duties does that church have?"
Jen answered, "Well, Protestants believe that the body of believers constitutes Christ's 'church'. As far as God claiming that one denomination/branch is the exclusive, sanctioned church, I do not believe that. Now, as an institution, church must have its primary focus on serving Christ and being in his will."
You seem to be chiding her for saying "Protestant's believe" rather than "I believe." But Jen is a Protestant, so I don't think it is asking too much of us to read that Jen so believes. You task her for, "Nice words about what church's should do, but again, it doesn't mean anything without answering the primary question, which again is: Did God establish a church on earth and if so, what is it's authority and duty?" But Jen, IMO, answers your question quite clearly, God did not establish any one institution to be "The Church", but rather that the community of believers, the Umma as the Muslims say about theirs, is the church established by the Christ. She then goes on to say that she believes that the institutional churches have a responsibility to foster an understanding of God's will as expressed in scripture. Seems a clear and complete answer to your question to me.
29350. vonKreedon - 10/24/2008 7:22:55 PM Anomie - As I read you question...well to quote, "Did God (Christ, etc) establish a church on earth? If so, what authority or duties does that church have?"
Jen answered, "Well, Protestants believe that the body of believers constitutes Christ's 'church'. As far as God claiming that one denomination/branch is the exclusive, sanctioned church, I do not believe that. Now, as an institution, church must have its primary focus on serving Christ and being in his will."
You seem to be chiding her for saying "Protestant's believe" rather than "I believe." But Jen is a Protestant, so I don't think it is asking too much of us to read that Jen so believes. You task her for, "Nice words about what church's should do, but again, it doesn't mean anything without answering the primary question, which again is: Did God establish a church on earth and if so, what is it's authority and duty?" But Jen, IMO, answers your question quite clearly, God did not establish any one institution to be "The Church", but rather that the community of believers, the Umma as the Muslims say about theirs, is the church established by the Christ. She then goes on to say that she believes that the institutional churches have a responsibility to foster an understanding of God's will as expressed in scripture. Seems a clear and complete answer to your question to me.
29351. vonKreedon - 10/24/2008 7:26:18 PM D'Oh! Damned refresh/double post bug.
Wiz (I'm not sure where the 'h' came from in my previous post) - Nice quick summation of both Maher's argument and his short comings. And while I'm not sure that religion in general has caused more harm than good for humanity, I do agree that externalizing one's moral compass, particularly in a context fraught with groupthink, is a very dangerous thing to do and a very big problem that I have with standard issue religion. 29352. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 10/24/2008 7:47:41 PM Thanks vK.
So many gods, so many creeds,
So many paths that wind and wind,
While just the art of being kind
Is all the sad world needs.
Ella Wheeler Wilcox 29353. Jenerator - 10/24/2008 7:51:14 PM Thank you, VonK. I appreciate your levity. :-) 29354. Jenerator - 10/24/2008 7:51:55 PM Anomie,
I thought I had answered your questions as well. Tell me what other question(s) you have and I will answer. 29355. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 10/24/2008 7:52:33 PM toys 29356. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 10/24/2008 7:55:34 PM You never really answered any of my questions directly, Jen and you seem to ignore everything but the tangential parts that are easier to address. 29357. anomie - 10/24/2008 8:05:34 PM Jen has done nothing but evade the question. I was very up front about where I was trying to lead the discussion and Jen is deliberately avoiding the question instead of trying to honestly respond to the specific question. I do not underestimate her cleverness, but I thought she would show some respect for the inquiry since I made it clear I was not trying to trick her or trap her.
I could parse words and describe exactly how she avoided the questions but anyone who can read can see what she's doing. I am astonished that that you, VK, can't see what's going on here. But for your sake I will (though I should not really need to) explain that her answer to the first and main main question uses passive language that CAN suggest that church established itself, which as I said avoids the question. And then again, briefly, "focus" is not "authority or duty".
Reading Jen's reply, I would have to assume that her answer is, "no", and "no".
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