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29348. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 10/24/2008 6:35:09 PM I agree, anomie, he has paid the price for his outspokeness. Maher can be a rabidly agnostic, close-minded and unreasonable at times, but I have yet to see someone polk holes in the logic of his argument wrt religions' dangerous effects on the world. 29349. vonKreedon - 10/24/2008 7:15:39 PM Anomie - As I read you question...well to quote, "Did God (Christ, etc) establish a church on earth? If so, what authority or duties does that church have?"
Jen answered, "Well, Protestants believe that the body of believers constitutes Christ's 'church'. As far as God claiming that one denomination/branch is the exclusive, sanctioned church, I do not believe that. Now, as an institution, church must have its primary focus on serving Christ and being in his will."
You seem to be chiding her for saying "Protestant's believe" rather than "I believe." But Jen is a Protestant, so I don't think it is asking too much of us to read that Jen so believes. You task her for, "Nice words about what church's should do, but again, it doesn't mean anything without answering the primary question, which again is: Did God establish a church on earth and if so, what is it's authority and duty?" But Jen, IMO, answers your question quite clearly, God did not establish any one institution to be "The Church", but rather that the community of believers, the Umma as the Muslims say about theirs, is the church established by the Christ. She then goes on to say that she believes that the institutional churches have a responsibility to foster an understanding of God's will as expressed in scripture. Seems a clear and complete answer to your question to me.
29350. vonKreedon - 10/24/2008 7:22:55 PM Anomie - As I read you question...well to quote, "Did God (Christ, etc) establish a church on earth? If so, what authority or duties does that church have?"
Jen answered, "Well, Protestants believe that the body of believers constitutes Christ's 'church'. As far as God claiming that one denomination/branch is the exclusive, sanctioned church, I do not believe that. Now, as an institution, church must have its primary focus on serving Christ and being in his will."
You seem to be chiding her for saying "Protestant's believe" rather than "I believe." But Jen is a Protestant, so I don't think it is asking too much of us to read that Jen so believes. You task her for, "Nice words about what church's should do, but again, it doesn't mean anything without answering the primary question, which again is: Did God establish a church on earth and if so, what is it's authority and duty?" But Jen, IMO, answers your question quite clearly, God did not establish any one institution to be "The Church", but rather that the community of believers, the Umma as the Muslims say about theirs, is the church established by the Christ. She then goes on to say that she believes that the institutional churches have a responsibility to foster an understanding of God's will as expressed in scripture. Seems a clear and complete answer to your question to me.
29351. vonKreedon - 10/24/2008 7:26:18 PM D'Oh! Damned refresh/double post bug.
Wiz (I'm not sure where the 'h' came from in my previous post) - Nice quick summation of both Maher's argument and his short comings. And while I'm not sure that religion in general has caused more harm than good for humanity, I do agree that externalizing one's moral compass, particularly in a context fraught with groupthink, is a very dangerous thing to do and a very big problem that I have with standard issue religion. 29352. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 10/24/2008 7:47:41 PM Thanks vK.
So many gods, so many creeds,
So many paths that wind and wind,
While just the art of being kind
Is all the sad world needs.
Ella Wheeler Wilcox 29353. Jenerator - 10/24/2008 7:51:14 PM Thank you, VonK. I appreciate your levity. :-) 29354. Jenerator - 10/24/2008 7:51:55 PM Anomie,
I thought I had answered your questions as well. Tell me what other question(s) you have and I will answer. 29355. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 10/24/2008 7:52:33 PM toys 29356. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 10/24/2008 7:55:34 PM You never really answered any of my questions directly, Jen and you seem to ignore everything but the tangential parts that are easier to address. 29357. anomie - 10/24/2008 8:05:34 PM Jen has done nothing but evade the question. I was very up front about where I was trying to lead the discussion and Jen is deliberately avoiding the question instead of trying to honestly respond to the specific question. I do not underestimate her cleverness, but I thought she would show some respect for the inquiry since I made it clear I was not trying to trick her or trap her.
I could parse words and describe exactly how she avoided the questions but anyone who can read can see what she's doing. I am astonished that that you, VK, can't see what's going on here. But for your sake I will (though I should not really need to) explain that her answer to the first and main main question uses passive language that CAN suggest that church established itself, which as I said avoids the question. And then again, briefly, "focus" is not "authority or duty".
Reading Jen's reply, I would have to assume that her answer is, "no", and "no".
29358. vonKreedon - 10/24/2008 8:13:27 PM And I read her reply to say, as I've said, that her answer is that God did not establish an institutional Church, but rather that the community of faith is the Church spoken of in the Bible, and that she went above and beyond merely and strictly answering your question to answer what is the duty of the various Christian Churches.
Now you can quibble with her use of passive voice, certainly if I were editing her prose for publication I would do so, but many many people speak in passive voice as a default and it is encumbant on us to understand them anyway, though to do so may take a genuine curiosity about what they are trying to say. 29359. pelty - 10/24/2008 9:09:26 PM Right. Aplogies for not being clear. I have not seen his movie and my critique is/was not aimed towards that. If his critique is that there are Christians who are dumb and do not understand the complexities of their beliefs, I say "yes, but so what?" The same might be said of people of all creeds (or lack thereof). Irrationality comes in many guises.
My issues with Maher are stylistic, to be sure, and stem from the media's willingness to grant some sort of authority to a guy whose academic credentials are borderline non-existent and whose career highlights include "Cannibal Women in the Avocado Jungle of Death." 29360. anomie - 10/24/2008 10:21:17 PM VK, you can't defend your client by changing her words. She didn't say what you said she did. And she didn't say what the church's "duties" are.
You are clearly missing everything if you think Jen doesn't know exactly what she's doing. She is being evasive on purpose, and in such a clever way that it has sucked you right in. And she's doing it becasue she knows she can't possibly justify many of her previous criticisms of other people's beliefs if she goes down the road of a simple and concise conversation about the authority of chuch verses individual conscience and direct relationship with god. Once she acknowledges that authority rests with god working person to person, ahe can no longer justify her criticisms of other faiths and practices. To do so, she would have to invoke some authority external to that relationship...a church!
Perhaps if you'd quit revising her text in your mind, you could see the simplicity of it all. 29361. vonKreedon - 10/24/2008 10:24:40 PM He are Jen's words, perhaps if you read them with genuine curiosity you'll find answers to your questions:
"Well, Protestants believe that the body of believers constitutes Christ's 'church'. As far as God claiming that one denomination/branch is the exclusive, sanctioned church, I do not believe that. Now, as an institution, church must have its primary focus on serving Christ and being in his will."
29362. anomie - 10/24/2008 10:25:12 PM Specifically she didn't say this: "...the community of faith is the Church spoken of in the Bible..." Didn't even imply it.
As to "duties", she merely used the word. She didn't say what the duties were. The "focus" on such and such helped the church carry out it's duties, or something ike that... 29363. anomie - 10/24/2008 10:30:09 PM VK, I read that. It's not what you said she said in your other post. I've said, I read that as her denial that God established a church. She must be implying the church established itself, or themselves. Therefore they have no authority on earth, etc, etc. So why doesn't she just confirm what you and deduce from from her vague, passive language? It's because she wants to leave it confused so she can claim something entirely differnt later on, (I would say if I were going to impune her motives, which I am.) 29364. anomie - 10/24/2008 10:37:18 PM And why are you mentioning (questioning?) my genuiness? Of course I'm genuinely curious, but not about her confused doctrines. I'm curious about how she resolves the inconsistencies in her own mind and I said so. What's more genuine than that? I'm not sittig at her feet to learn what Protestants believe. 29365. vonKreedon - 10/24/2008 10:50:36 PM Well you start with the assumption that she has confused doctrines and are incurious about those, only about how she resolves the inconsistencies in her own mind. That's a mighty limited and agenda driven form of curiosity.
And it's clear to me that she's saying that the Church is the community of believers, and yes I imply that in her belief it is established by God for two reasons:
1 - The community of belief does not exist but for the belief in God.
2 - Jen is clear that all her religious belief is based in the Bible, and in Matthew 16:18 Jesus says, "And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it." So logically she must believe that God founded the Church. 29366. anomie - 10/24/2008 11:12:06 PM "So logically she must believe that God founded the Church."
What? What?
The question is "on earth". On earth. Why is it that you and Jen are so confused about 2 simple questions?
But anyway, why doesn't she say so? Why doesn't she describe what she believes the authorities and duties of that church? Aren't you curious why she doesn't chime in and clear things up?
To be frank, VK, you're not helping. You don't seem to understand why I'm asking the questions. You seem to think my interest is in doctrine and belief. It's not.
29367. vonKreedon - 10/24/2008 11:17:56 PM Well, this is the Religion and Philosophy thread.
I still don't understand your alleged confusion about Jen's answers to your questions. But it is quite clear that they are agenda driven, so perhaps the answers weren't what you were hoping for.
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