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5042. alistairconnor - 7/28/2006 2:37:42 PM seems like an awful lot of people are getting busted for testosterone in general.
-- that's because testosterone use has been rife in cycling for years (the Spanish case is clear concrete evidence of this). The busts are a fairly recent thing, and the riders haven't quite got the message yet it seems.
anabolic steroids largely work by increasing the capacity for training and increasing the bulk and tolerance of muscles. That isn't going to happen in a few hours.
This is what I mean about a strawman. It's a fallacious argument :
* The MAIN reason people take steroids in sport is to build muscle.
* That doesn't work overnight.
* Therefore testosterone won't increase your performance the next day.
This ignores the fact that testosterone has a well-understood SECONDARY effect : it enhances recuperation.
Any "expert" who ignores this effect in the current case is simply being disingenuous.
Clearly, the recuperation effect is sufficient reason to take it in Floyd's circumstances, if he thought he could get away with it.
5043. iiibbb - 7/28/2006 3:04:52 PM Motive is not guilt.
I agree with the writer that it shouldn't have been made public until he were tested again in the future. 4:1 is only two standard deviations from normal... that does not exclude readings that are higher.
Just as easy as it is to say that they would gamble for that kind of glory... Landis already makes a 6-figure income leading that team. A top-10 finish in the tour is still pretty darn lucrative. I doesn't seem that cheating is an automatic reaction to a bonk.
5044. Macnas - 7/28/2006 3:09:32 PM That's interesting. The people who are writing in his defence are saying that testosterone could not make him cycle faster given the short time span.
It's not that he cycled faster, it was that he was able to cycle as fast as he could on any good day, despite the meatgrinder of a day he had before.
We had a swimmer, Michelle Smith/De Bruin, who was found to have doped on an L.A. olympics medal win. The american press tore right into her straight away, "get yourself and your junky family out of our town" were some of the words used.
I know, like us and Michelle, nobody wants to believe it could be true, but it more than probably is. 5045. iiibbb - 7/28/2006 3:14:30 PM There is plenty of American press that have already damned Landis as well. 5046. alistairconnor - 7/28/2006 3:16:44 PM The think is, iii, that we are in uncharted territory. None of the current pros were around in the days before modern, highly-effective doping started. Lance NEVER had a bad day like Floyd's in seven years (which just isn't humanly possible...) so the guys just don't know how to react.
I'm sure that Floyd's comeback was 90% guts and bravado... Then again, maybe he took other stuff which wasn't detected? 5047. iiibbb - 7/28/2006 3:24:59 PM I hope we find out a believable truth.
As it stands, I'm with his mother. If he took the stuff he doesn't deserve to win.
What really surprises me is that don't take the time to establish baselines for these athletes... particularly the leaders of teams. 5048. alistairconnor - 7/28/2006 3:38:04 PM Yes, that's where the UCI has been completely hopeless. In practice, they have been deliberately turning a blind eye for decades. When they act now, they are doing so reluctantly. In fact they have been driven to it by the justice systems of the principal cycling countries : France, Italy and Spain.
The protocols all exist. The top French riders undergo rigorous ongoing testing, government mandated, to ensure that they don't stray. 5049. iiibbb - 7/28/2006 9:08:32 PM If he cheated... he is a fool
Apparently the mass-spec test is very good.
The next step he can take when he appeals is his last resort: a test called IRNS, or mass spectrometry. Wadler says this test doesn't care about whether or not your body produces extra amounts of testosterone. It's a chemical test that tells us whether or not this testosterone was either introduced from an outside source or if it is naturally occurring. If they go to it and the testosterone is determined to be of exogenous origin, Landis is toast. This [current] test result is not a smoking gun; it's an irregularity. 5050. iiibbb - 7/28/2006 9:09:39 PM What I don't understand is if the mass-spec test is so much better, why the result was released before they have a definative answer. What's up with that? 5051. wonkers2 - 7/28/2006 9:32:33 PM Cap'n Dirty sez, "As I figgered, Armstrong said today he's just a naturally high testosterone guy, (like The Cap'n)." 5052. alistairConnor - 7/28/2006 9:46:40 PM What it is : they only released the fact that one rider had a positive test on that particular stage. The authorities said nothing about who it was. Then Landis abruptly cancelled his scheduled races, so speculation focused on him, and it was his team that finally let the cat out of the bag.
You're right : either he will ask for the definitive test, and we'll know. Or he won't ask for it, and we'll know. 5053. wonkers2 - 7/28/2006 9:58:40 PM My understanding is that all men, except for Saudi harem guards, test positive for testosterone. There is a bell curve range for testosterone level in the blood within which nearly all men fall. Is it not possible that Landis is naturally at the high end of the range. I wonder what the limit is for athletes? I'll try google for more info. 5054. wonkers2 - 7/28/2006 10:11:28 PM All you need to know about testosterone. The normal testosterone range for men is 300-1000 ng/dl. I wonder what Landis's result was? [The Cap'n's is 999.] 5055. alistairConnor - 7/29/2006 5:11:50 PM That's not strictly what they are testing. They are interested in the ratio between testosterone and epitestosterone. If there is not much epi- compared to the T, that is taken to indicate that the T is of unnatural origin.
The silly thing is, it's easy to fool this test by taking both E and T in proportional amounts. This is the sort of test that, in my view, was carefully designed to let cheats get away with it. i.e. it's quite likely that Landis and other riders have been using synthetic T throughout the tour, but masking it by taking synthetic E. So Floyd's reaction, of a man unjustly accused, is quite likely of the good old "everybody does it" variety.
One of the theories doing the rounds is that he messed up the dosage of E on that particular day.
What we don't yet know is the level of T that was detected. Everyone presumes it was abnormally high, as well as out of proportion to the E.
The moment of truth is whether Floyd asks for the mass-spec test, which can distinguish natural T from the synthetic stuff. If he asks for it, we can expect that it will clear him. 5056. PelleNilsson - 7/29/2006 5:39:18 PM But if we look at the plain facts, we have a rider who hit the wall on the last climb of a tough a mountain stage and lost 8 mins. To assume that he could bounce out of bed the next day and win the next tough mountain stage by a minute without chemical assistance is to strain credulity. 5057. alistairConnor - 7/29/2006 6:16:19 PM No Pelle, the history of the tour is full of stuff like that. True gutsy heroics. (well possibly aided by amphetamines, in the good old days.) 5058. PelleNilsson - 7/29/2006 7:44:57 PM That's my point. 5059. wabbit - 7/31/2006 5:41:09 PM  Michelle Wie had a two-shot lead after 11 holes and seemed poised to answer all of the questions about when her first professional win was going to come. Then the 16-year-old from Hawaii bogeyed the 13th hole. That was all Karrie Webb needed.
Webb became the first woman to win three events this season after shooting a 4-under 68 in the final round of the Evian Masters on Saturday, denying Wie her first LPGA Tour victory. Webb finished at 16-under 272 for the tournament, one stroke ahead of both Wie (68) and 42-year-old Laura Davies (67).
Corey Pavin found the winning formula again: precise putting, a lucky bounce and his old caddie to show him the way. The 46-year-old Pavin won his first PGA Tour title in 10 years Sunday, closing with a 3-under 67 for a two-stroke victory over Madison native Jerry Kelly in the U.S. Bank Championship.
Pavin, whose last win came in the 1996 Colonial, earned his 15th tour victory by averaging just 26.5 putts per round and getting a timely eagle on the par-4 eighth. He finished with a 20-under 260 total. Kelly also closed with a 67. Jeff Sluman (64) was 17 under, Frank Lickliter (69) and D.J. Trahan (69) followed at 15 under and Woody Austin (65), Joey Sindelar (67) and Billy Andrade (68) were 14 under.
5060. wabbit - 7/31/2006 5:42:34 PM  On Saturday, Justin Gatlin acknowledged he had been informed by the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency that he had tested positive for testosterone or other steroids after a relay race in Kansas in April. The revelation came just two days after Tour de France champion Floyd Landis' victory was thrown into question for allegations of similar doping violations. Gatlin said he did not know why the test came back positive and promised cooperation with USADA, as it continues with the case. While his coach claimed Gatlin's positive drug test was a result of sabotage, the leader of the World Anti-Doping Agency on Sunday called for the American sprinter to be banned for "up to life" if the results are confirmed. Gatlin's coach, Trevor Graham, said in an interview on Jamaican television that the Olympic and world champion and co-world-record holder in the 100 meters was victim of a setup. Gatlin's connection with Graham is viewed as problematic. Gatlin has long positioned himself as a champion of drug-free competition in a sport dogged by problems, while Graham is a key figure in the BALCO investigation and has coached several athletes who have tested positive for steroids.
The test on the cyclist measured the ratio of testosterone to epitestosterone in his system and found an imbalance. Gatlin's test was different. Called a carbon-isotope ratio test, it is essentially a test that looks only at testosterone, not epitestosterone, and can determine whether the testosterone in a person's system is natural or unnatural. The results of both athletes' tests point to the same type of violation of illegal-substance policy.
We should know the results of Landis' "B" test later today.
5061. wonkers2 - 7/31/2006 7:02:08 PM Just look at Gatlin. He didn't get that way on Wheaties (Breakfast of Champions).
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