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536. EricCartman - 12/11/1999 10:19:03 AM For newbies, fake posts might be a problem. Most of the rest of us seem to be able to tell 'em pretty quick, especially since the times are nearly impossible to get right. Ace seems to be the one that does the most of it, and he usually makes it pretty clear that they're for comedic purposes. So my 2¢ is that it's basically too infrequent to even be worth getting worked up over. I thought Waffles' posts were so intentionally obvious, I'm almost surprised Stone even bothered to get worked up about it.
Almost.
Tempest in a teapot, anyone?
537. AceofSpades - 12/11/1999 2:30:22 PM
Cartman:
They're only "intentionally obvious" to those who are in on the gag.
Which is the problem.
I'm not really up for a per se ban on the trick. But it is a good idea to, at minimum, NEVER play the trick on someone who isn't in on the joke.
In addition, we should NEVER but nasty words into anyone's mouth. Goofy stuff only.
Finally, the name on the "post" should always be faked. No real monikers; you should always change it.
The latter step would be reassuring to newbies. They can understand that anyone can come in and sign up under a name SIMILAR, but not the same, as someone else's. (Not that that's what we're doing, but that sort of thing can be done in ANY forum.)
By the way:
I pointed this out when the topic first arose all those months ago, but YES, you can play the exact same trick at Salon. I've done it-- I posted a fake post from myself. (I wonder if that's why they banned me...?) 538. EricCartman - 12/11/1999 2:40:56 PM Ace:
That all sounds reasonable enough to me. No one's really done it much in quite a while anyway; it kinda petered out because we wore the novelty out back in the beta stage.
And if Stone had just let Nostradamus' most recent disguised shots at him go, it'd be a moot point by now. I just have the feeling that there's more dirt being kicked up than actual punches being thrown, if you know what I mean.
But yeah, maybe we all oughta just have a gentlemen's agreement to save those sorts of pranks for the Playpen, and not spam the other threads with them.
539. ee - 12/11/1999 3:13:06 PM Let the fake posts go for the time being and see who and how it's abused. It's easy enough to point out fakes.
I hate the added sound waves. 540. wabbit - 12/13/1999 4:42:25 AM Have any of the victims of fake posts checked in? I'd like to hear what they have to say.
541. Adrianne - 12/27/1999 10:58:10 PM Wabbit
Question - Where should (pretty mildly stated) objections to a moderator's behavior be posted? In Arts and Music, I wrote to JJ (the formal style was meant to take some of the sting out - I've done this with him before, and he, me).
1309. Adrianne - 12/28/99 2:34:39 PM
Dear Mr. JJBeiner, Moderator
I was browsing this usually moribund thread, when I came across a
gratuitously nasty comment interjected into a discussion between two
posters who disagreed, but were not flaming or fighting one another.
(JJ TO CORALREEF) "coralreef - Your lack of knowledge about the musical history of the last 50 years is astounding. First of all, Rock & Roll started in the 50's, not the 60's. Second, to discount the Beatles as a marketing gimmick or a rehash of R&B demonstrates a fundamental and overwhelming ignorance of the period and music. I suggest you find a subject you actually know something about."
Surprisingly, or maybe not, it was an interjected by the moderator of
this thread. You might consider whether or not this kind of behavior is likely to attract posters to your thread, and, inevitably, to The Mote.
Sincerely,
Adrianne
I was quickly taken to task by (who else)
1310. CalGal - 12/28/99 2:40:26 PM
"Ad,
I found your smarmy marm lecture far more bothersome than anything
else in this thread in a few days. Take it to the playpen."
While I don't know what "smarmy marm" is (?) I'll take a flyer and guess that it's not complimentary. That's ok, I don't mind that - but I *am* curious about the order to "take it to the playpen."
Surely that wouldn't be the place for my post? Would it? In retrospect, should I have emailed it to JJ?
What say you?
542. CalGal - 12/27/1999 11:21:20 PM Ad,
You are no more compelled to "take it to the playpen" then I am to watch an interesting debate turn into a bitch session about JJ's purported meanness.
I don't think there is a right or wrong method of addressing these things. You do what you think is appropriate. Including, if you wish, ignoring me completely.
I do not speak for wabbit. I merely wish to correct your notion that you were "ordered" to take it to the playpen. Do not confuse a high-handed rhetorical style with an assumption of authority. 543. wabbit - 12/28/1999 1:34:04 AM Ad,
The idea of having threads hosted was that someone who was interested in the topic would keep the thread moving along. This does not preclude the thread host taking a swipe at a participant in the course of a discussion, even if the host was not originally part of the conversation. Thread hosts are still primarily participants in their threads and it is up to them to set the tone for the thread. Each host has to decide for themselves whether or not their particular topic lends itself to biting comments made toward other participants. Some threads, like politics and religion, seem to be tailor-made for such comments, others lean toward more civilized disagreements. Personalities rule each thread, including that of the host.
As far as objections are concerned, I would say this thread is appropriate. Email is an alternative. 544. Adrianne - 12/28/1999 1:40:11 AM
Thanks, wabbit.
545. Adrianne - 1/31/2000 11:53:37 PM
Wabbit
Since it seems that we are revisiting the RoE....:-)
Recently, some of my personal information was revealed here on The Mote - stuff I had revealed on another forum. The motive was pure malice, it couldn't have been inadvertant, coming as it did from out of the blue and appropos of absolutely nothing being discussed.
I went to the RoE because I remembered (I thought) that we had made this a no-no (bringing up personal information that had not been revealed ON THE MOTE without express permission). I see that I misremembered, that that policy was not adopted.
I'd like to see that issue addressed again, iffen we're going to have another round of adjustments to the RoE.
546. JayAckroyd - 1/31/2000 11:54:07 PM Here's the banning position I want to discuss:
Banning doesn't work. It engenders more fuss and bother than its worth, and doesn't really keep people out. It's administratively intensive, and encourages bad discussions filled with enmity about who should be banned and why.
Thread management with hosts ranging from dictatorial to free-wheeling is working just fine. A block-another-user feature might also help keep the noise level down when graffiti artists come storming in.
547. Indiana Jones - 2/1/2000 12:00:24 AM I support banning people for revealing personal information. People choose to be anonymous for a reason. Threatening to remove this shield is an attempt to intimidate them from posting. Ergo, the person who uses this threat should lose the right to post.
The Mote is a great place, but it's not life-and-death. The number of posters here is probably low enough that we could effectively police such a ban better than at TT.
If the RoE mean anything, then both Cellar and cazart should be banned. I think a poster's overall contribution to the forum should be taken into consideration before passing sentence, but continued egregious violations have to warrant the death penalty. 548. AceofSpades - 2/1/2000 12:02:57 AM
If the RoE mean anything, then both Cellar and cazart should be banned.
I don't think it means this at all. They should have fair warning. I believe they'll both stop if my interpretation is adopted.
If they don't stop, that would be the time to discuss suspension et al.
Of course, if no rule is adopted, they will continue being pricks because it brings them pleasure to be a prick. 549. JayAckroyd - 2/1/2000 12:08:33 AM Don't you see that banning simply encourages some people to see how far they can go? Then they get banned, scream about it here and on the table talk forum (which to my mind is doing much more harm than good, and blame myself for its continued existence).
And then they come back under a new name. Ace's experiment with AOL shows it's harder than I thought, but it's still not hard.
Even banning IDs is kinda worthless. It's easy enough to come up with a new id that is enough like your old ID that everyone knows who it is.
And every time the topic comes up, we get consumed with whom should be banned and why and who likes whom and on and on.
It's not worth it. The value of the sanction isn't worth the effort involved enforcing it, and the pain that it causes as soon as someone tries to get themselves banned.
As it is the, moderator is a thankless task, and wabbit's been stuck with both that role and the gatekeeper role for some time. Wabbit won't do this forever. How easy do you think it will be to recruit a replacement if we continually suffer through this nonsense? 550. Indiana Jones - 2/1/2000 12:11:12 AM Ace: Doesn't the rule already exist? How can you ask for punishment for someone on TT if we don't enforce the rule here?
Cazart wants to be banned...that's obvious. It's okay with me whatever's decided (both, one, neither).
If someone published my real name or a photo of me once, I'd sure want them punished. If CalGal is okay with Cellar sliding this time, maybe that ought to weigh in on the decision. Neither he nor cazart demonstrates much remorse. 551. Indiana Jones - 2/1/2000 12:12:32 AM Jay: I originally opted for "shunning" versus banning, especially in the case of disruptors. If we're not going to enforce the privacy issue, though, we should just repeal it. 552. CalGal - 2/1/2000 12:25:19 AM Recently, some of my personal information was revealed here on The Mote - stuff I had revealed on another forum. The motive was pure malice, it couldn't have been inadvertant, coming as it did from out of the blue and appropos of absolutely nothing being discussed.
The motive was not pure malice, you little piece of pompom fluff. You regularly discussed your spouse's occupation on the Fray, and refer to your spouse as a "Officer Friendly" on this forum. It most certainly was appropos to what being discussed--you just didn't think the connection was relevant.
I had no idea you considered it private information. As I said to you in the Inferno, if it had been, I would have apologized immediately.
We made it clear that we could not put the genie back into the bottle. If someone releases the information at any time, it is no longer private. I have already mentioned this as a relevant data point with Stone, who used his name as a login at one point. The mere use of the name does not entail a violation, IMO. What does constitute a violation, IMO, is the malicious use of information about another person that the poster knows is no longer openly available. That is the category that Cellar's use of Stone's real name falls under.
Continued use of private information after requests not to use it can be considered abusive, and there is still an out in the RoE for abuse.
Were you to publicly request that you didn't want your spouse's occupation referred to ever again, then I would comply with that request out of courtesy. However, that includes you not referring to his occupation either, so give up on "Officer Friendly". 553. IrvingSnodgrass - 2/1/2000 12:25:24 AM To my knowledge, Cellar never posted the photo in this forum. I believe CalGal confirmed this recently.
Cazart was given a warning when the photo was posted in the Inferno (and subsequently deleted). Wabbit made it clear that if it happened again, cazart would be banned.
The rule is clear enough: if personal information is posted, it will be deleted and the violator banned (although I think a warning is in order for first offenses, as in cazart's case).
I don't know anything about the situation Ad mentioned above, but it sure sounds like a RoE violation to me. At the very least, the post should be deleted and a warning issued.
There should be no sharing of personal info against the wishes of a participant, period. 554. AceofSpades - 2/1/2000 12:28:15 AM
"Don't you see that banning simply encourages some people to see how far they can go?"
No. If they do, they get banned. They do not seem to come back.
"Then they get banned, scream about it here and on the table talk forum (which to my mind is doing much more harm than good, and blame myself for its continued existence). "
So? They don't come back here.
Further, several people have modified their behavior under a threat of ban.
I myself am one of them. You, as tech guy, might have access to a dozen e-mail accounts. I don't. If I get banned, I stay banned, because I have no way to work around the ban. Furthermore, I wouldn't BOTHER trying even if I had an inkling of how to do it.
"And then they come back under a new name. Ace's experiment with AOL shows it's harder than I thought, but it's still not hard."
Yeah? Who's done it?
I couldn't. (Not that I was banned; I was trying to come in under a spoof ID.)
"Even banning IDs is kinda worthless. It's easy enough to come up with a new id that is enough like your old ID that everyone knows who it is."
If "everyone knows," you get banned.
Either you admit to who you are to say "hi" to your friends and get banned, or you pretend to be someone else. Either way, it's a punishment.
"It's not worth it. The value of the sanction isn't worth the effort involved enforcing it, and the pain that it causes as soon as someone tries to get themselves banned."
Because you DON'T CARE about the violation. So it isn't "worth it" to you.
Much like someone with perfect health saying, "It's not worth passing a law to prevent genetic information from being used against me by insurers." Well, duh-- of course it's not "worth it" to you. 555. AceofSpades - 2/1/2000 12:31:44 AM
"the pain that it causes as soon as someone tries to get themselves banned"
You guys are... I don't know what. You postulate someone has "tried" to get himself banned, and then you feel "pain" when they get banned.
Pardon me for not "feeling" as much as you do.
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