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589. AceofSpades - 2/1/2000 1:50:50 AM Irv:
You said:
I never said any such thing. I oppose this silliness on the grounds of principle, not because it would be "hard to enforce." It is simply not our job to enforce our rules elsewhere on the web. Period.
I said: You had merely restated your conclusion as evidence ("It is silly because it is not our job").
You said:
Which brings up another point... who is going to do all this deleting and banning and re-banning? I know our current moderator isn't interested in doing it, and we don't even have a gatekeeper.
It isn't easy to find volunteers willing to spend time and effort on this site and willing to put themselves on the firing line to boot.
I said that you said: 1) That while you admit the need for banning (I did not claim that you opposed banning; I explicitly stated you supported banning), you thought extending the banning rule to TT was too much work ("who is going to do all this deleting and banning and re-banning?"); and 2) that this banning puts Wabbit on the "firing line."
Once again, if your "real points" are so craftilly hidden amidst these statements that my feeble intellect cannot grasp them, I'd appreciate it if you simplified things for me.
Seems to me I have re-stated your arguments, such as they are, faithfully. 590. AceofSpades - 2/1/2000 1:59:32 AM
What I gleaned from your argument was this:
"It is simply not our job to ban people for outing personal information on TT," even if NOT banning them for such backdoor outings defeats the very purpose of the privacy rule in the first place. Why? Because it's "not our job," and that's "a matter of principle."
Further, "who will do all this banning and re-banning?" This point, while fair, applies equally to ANY scheme in which banning is contemplated, and our current RoE does contemplate banning-- indeed, it promises it.
Lastly, bannings put "Wabbit on the firing line." This, I suppose, means that there will be lots of anger about bannings. Once again, this applies equally to banning Cellar for the violation he committed here. And, once again, you seem to believe that the "bad feelings" engendered by banning are preferrable to actually banning someone for outing personal information. That is, we should not actually ban people for outing personal information, for, while that's bad, the hurt feelings caused by banning are worse.
If this means something else, I cannot guess what it might be. Wabbit was put on the "firing line" for other outings of personal information; I do not see the distinction why it's okay to put her on the "firing line" for outings HERE but beyond the pale to put her on the "firing line" for violations just next door in the Mote Cafe.
591. IrvingSnodgrass - 2/1/2000 2:09:35 AM Ace:
Please re-read my original comment on the issue. I stated my points clearly there, and also stated that I would not get into a debate about it.
I have only posted to protest your misrepresenting my comments, which you continue to do.
For example, when I mentioned that this would increase the workload of the moderator, I never mentioned or implied any work involving TT. That was your creation, and bears no relation to my post.
Please just ignore my posts if you can't understand them. And please don't keep putting words and meanings I never said nor intended into your interpretation of my posts. 592. AceofSpades - 2/1/2000 2:20:33 AM
Jesus, you're annoying. Your posts say NOTHING at all, and then when I attempt to divine meaning from your pap, you insist over and over, "You're missing my point."
Irv, when you figure out what the hell your point is, get back to me.
Here's the nonsense I've seen so far:
"It is enough that we are responsible for what is posted on our site."
AND WHY IS THAT, IRV?
"We have clear Rules of Engagement for this site, and we can clearly monitor those rules. We shouldn't be in the business of telling people what they can do elsewhere on the web... the rules for other sites are made by those who run those sites."
Ah... we shouldn't enforce our rules at TT BECAUSE we shouldn't enforce our rules at TT. Conclusion restated as evidence. Again and again, over and over.
And Irv insists: But you're avoiding my point.
No, Irv, I get your point: We shouldn't do this BECAUSE we shouldn't do this, and that's a matter of principle, and you feel strongly about it.
593. AceofSpades - 2/1/2000 2:23:41 AM
And then you go on:
If we try and extend our rules elsewhere, two things will happen:
1) Someone will inadvertently post something at TT (as Cellar did, for example) or somewhere else, and find him/herself in trouble at the Mote. And then we'll have to make an exception for that person. Once we start making exceptions, the rule is useless. The rule, as it stands now, and as it is applied to posts in the Mote, is clear and without exceptions.
I already pointed out: 1) Cellar's outings are not inadvertant, nor are Cazart's, and 2) we ALREADY make an exception for accidental, inadvertant, non-malicious outings HERE. There is no reason to assume, as you apparently do, that we would enforce our rules MORE DRACONIALLY than we do here.
2) People who are intent on causing trouble will see how much they can get away with. They'll start posting elsewhere, just to break the rule. It's human nature. If there is no rule, there's nothing for them to stretch. If we don't make it a major issue, but quietly enforce our rules, the problem is manageable. If our rules only apply here, we can enforce them.
And I already pointed out: They are not "pushing the rules" at TT, because we enforce NO RULES at TT.
And the piece de resistance:
I don't think we need to start extending our rules beyond this site, and I am very much against doing so.
Yes, you said that. Fifteen times now. You think that because you think that and we shouldn't do it because we shouldn't do it.
I'm sorry, Delphic One, but I am unable to divine Great Wisdom amidst these strewn intestines. 594. Jenerator - 2/1/2000 2:27:34 AM CalGal,
I'm sorry this is happening to you. Some people are just cruel hearted and for no apparent reason. Btw, did you ever get the email I sent you regarding the photo? I sent it a loooooong time ago. 595. AceofSpades - 2/1/2000 2:30:04 AM
draconically? 596. IrvingSnodgrass - 2/1/2000 2:32:07 AM Ace:
Jesus, you're annoying.
My sentiments exactly.
My first post said everything I intend to say, and I said so at the time. The rest has been trying to get you to stop mischaracterizing my post.
Do me a favor and stop trying to tell me what I said. I know what I said. I also said I will not get into a debate over it, and that's what is annoying you. 597. AceofSpades - 2/1/2000 2:32:23 AM
"For example, when I mentioned that this would increase the workload of the moderator, I never mentioned or implied any work involving TT. That was your creation, and bears no relation to my post."
Oh... so in a discussion about extending privacy rules to TT, you mention "additional work for the moderator," and dunderhead that I am, I assume you mean the PROPOSAL UNDER DISCUSSION would cause more work for the moderator, when in fact you meant some IRRELEVANT, UNMENTIONED, UNKNOWN, UNDISCLOSED proposal would cause this additional workload.
Sorry I missed that one. But I'm a-kind-a fucked up in the head, you know? 598. AceofSpades - 2/1/2000 2:35:59 AM
"My first post said everything I intend to say, and I said so at the time."
And said so well: It's bad because it's bad, and furthermore, we shouldn't do it because heck, we really shouldn't do it.
"The rest has been trying to get you to stop mischaracterizing my post."
I haven't mischaracterized dick, Irv. Your posts have said nothing at all and I have pointed that out to you.
Here's my final take:
I support extending privacy protection to TT because it's good to extend privacy protection to TT. Furthermore, that's a matter of principle. 599. Cazart - 2/2/2000 1:27:42 AM Well, Wabbit?
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<br>What's your (read: CalGal's/Jay's/et al) take on Ace's threats of violence?
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<br> 600. soupisgoodfood - 2/2/2000 1:21:11 PM This is truly a paradise on earth. 601. Indiana Jones - 2/2/2000 9:42:23 PM Complete with serpent (or at least a tapeworm) and everything. 602. cazart - 2/3/2000 1:22:07 AM Where is wabbit?
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<br> 603. Angel-Five - 2/6/2000 8:34:17 AM For what it's worth:
Either the Mote should be fully anonymous, and no personal information should be allowed to be said -- period -- or the Mote should be transparent a la Brin's book. I think the Mote so far has, if nothing else, demonstrated that half measures are not going to suffice. They just don't seem tenable to me. The illusion of anonymity that the privacy rules afford those people who need such anonymity isn't worth the bullshit that the privacy rules engender in this community. The notion, as far as I've been able to tell, is that the spirit of free intellectual exchange is valuable enough that it's worth a bit of hassle, when it comes to making and enforcing community rules, to err on the side of freedom rather than censorship. That's something I believe in myself. I think most people here do too. The problem is that a lot of people also seem to highly prize our ability to come in here and do and say things that they don't want anyone to ever be able to link to their IRL identities, and by definition free speech and the sort of censorship necessary to maintain this anonymity aren't compatible. We can, of course, make rules of demarcation between the two sets of desires (freedom and privacy) as a sort of compromise position. It's what most communities do. The thing is that it isn't working here. We aren't talking about a 'bit of hassle' anymore, but something rather larger. We don't have the manpower (if you'll forgive the sexist term) or the will to constantly sit in judgment and arbitrate the squabbles that arise over whosaid what and who else said what else and who's being a hypocrite and who's being deliberately subversive and so on. The rules are subject to as much debate if not more than any other issue in this forum, and this constant bickering is turning people away. 604. Angel-Five - 2/6/2000 8:34:43 AM And the rules themselves, instead of serving a solution, are now part of the problem. Too many people selectively abuse the rules for their own malicious purposes -- and then whine about it when it happens to them -- for us to really believe that the spirit of the privacy rule is being upheld by the current lettering. The rules have instead just become one more handy weapon in the entrenched disputes that characterize so much of discussion here in this forum, not to mention a handy boundary for the boundary-seekers to constantly test and break. And keeping these rules up is becoming a task of ridiculous proportions, not to mention what a turn-off they all are. It's not a sustainable enterprise either in terms of people willing to carry it out or people willing to wade through it all every time they post. I think we should go real-name IDs, or at least not ban personal information. If we all know each other's names there's little point in trying to blackmail each other a la GilRonen and the Ms. And if it's just that we're afraid that someone might link what our personas say to our real-life identities, what's that say about the value of what we have to say? 605. Indiana Jones - 2/6/2000 10:13:51 AM Angel-Five: (Wondered where you had gone.) If you prefer a "real" identity community, there are several with that requirement already. I can tell you from personal experience that it doesn't work, as I have never used my real identity in any online forum.
Anonymity has a fine tradition in American discourse. In fact, I think words are worth more when you have no idea who wrote them, as they are evaluated entirely on their own merits. The less you know about a person, the more difficult it is to mount an ad hominem attack, for example.
More importantly, it's a crazy world out there, full of obsessive people. When someone threatens me on an online forum, I don't take it seriously--provided my identity is secure. And even if we all knew each other, unless the site had security against lurkers, you never know who might get very offended at what you say.
If I take that kind of personal risk for an idea, it won't be unknowingly and for a trial balloon I've floated at the Mote. 606. Indiana Jones - 2/6/2000 10:18:50 AM On the flip side, I do think it's essential to try as best as possible to limit everyone to one log in. 607. Angel-Five - 2/6/2000 11:15:26 AM Jones: Well, I'd attach more weight to your statement about anonymity fostering unbiased dialogue if it weren't, well, so ridiculous. I beg your pardon. Take a look around this place. We have long since left any halcyon days of unhindered free debate behind us, and ironically, those days never saw any of the obsessive anonymity rules and debates that currently color our forum. Food for thought, isn't it? WRT the fear of an obsessive stalker: Trust me, the anonymity rules haven't prevented that from occuring. And I do recall none other than old Catinthehat, someone who stepped on more toes and insulted more folks than all but a handful of people I've seen online, someone who would certainly inspire the sort of reaction you're talking about from an unstable reader, made it a point to post his real name, his address, and some other personal info (I think he even posted his phone number someplace)... and reported zero harassment. Why? God knows that if it would have happened, Ferguson would have complained about it. But he didn't, did he? Which sort of ties in to something else that I was talking about earlier. Making a big deal out of the sanctity of your private information sets you up as a target for ninety-five percent of the people who would ever bother 'cyber-stalking' you in the first place, and the other five percent can probably dial you in whether or not the Mote bans the usage of personal information without another's consent. Maybe some of the people who post under their real name can relate whether or not it's ever caused them any such grief as you evidently fear might occur should you go 'transparent'. Please tell me, if you are minded to, some of the forums that use real information which you do not feel work well as communities. The one I've participated in -- the Well -- works fine. 608. Angel-Five - 2/6/2000 11:40:49 AM BTW: Out of curiosity, how do you logically reconcile your statement about anonymity fostering unbiased dialogue with your statement that we should all have one login? It would seem that if the former were true and a desirable goal in this forum, you'd be all for multiple IDs. But you aren't.
that position with your desire for anonymous IDs in the first place. After all, that's exactly what anonymous login-IDs allow, you know. Once again, take a look around.
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