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691. JudithAtHome - 2/20/2000 10:38:51 PM I agree with Pelle...if someone came to my place of business and repeatedly trashed it and went next door and spoke negatively to all and sundry about me and my business, then came to me and asked for a job in my store, I would have no problems in saying "No, I don't think so!"
Dusty, your attitude is very admirable (give him a chance, etc.) but unfortunately, it is wasted on someone who is out to do harm to this place. Past actions speak louder than words. 692. JayAckroyd - 2/20/2000 10:58:27 PM I don't think this is a difficult case at all. The thread proposed is just plain silly. A thread about the discussion area at a single internet site, where the discussion area is so trivial that in a NYTimes magazine article about the site, that content is never mentioned? The obvious place to discuss such a discussion area is on the site itself. Think about it. Television and Movies; Physics, Economics, History; Arts and Music; and the Table Talk Forum at salon.com.?!?
Moreover, it is really just a ploy. If we put up the thread, we're ninnies. If we don't, we're exclusionary. It would have been a better ploy if it had been a good suggestion. 693. Seguine - 2/21/2000 12:00:36 AM "The reason there is a distinction is because the distinction existed at the Fray."
This is not the Fray. That is, it is not a commercial site run by third parties for their own purposes but a volunteer site run by participants for their own purposes. The Mote's purposes and the concerns of its participants have evolved away from those of the Fray--and they had done, as of the Mote's inception. There was never any particular reason to hew to Fray policy in particular.
"While I support and agree with the distinction, it was not one that I instituted or demanded. It was a model that worked well there, and when we created this forum it was first tacitly and then explicitly agreed to use this model."
On the contrary, you advocated quite vocally for continuing Fray policy, in almost the same words you're using now. Some people agreed with you. Others didn't. The position you advocated was the one adopted. Naturally, I'm not sure how "it was first tacitly and then explicitly agreed [that all-purpose passive voice at work!] to use this model". You'll have to forgive my assumption that the policy's most vocal proponent had something to do with its adoption, but given that decision making here is not exactly transparent, I don't see why I shouldn't conclude your opinion carries at least some of the weight you wish it did.
694. Seguine - 2/21/2000 12:01:04 AM "Did everyone agree? No. A consensus was reached. Who determined that a consensus had been reached? You seem to think it was me. You might want to think again."
I could think all day about it and come to only provisional conclusions. But my uneducated bet is that Wabbit shares your concerns about privacy (for very different reasons) and Alistair, who probably doesn't care one way or the other, needs Wabbit to consent to moderate this place, so you got to write (at least) the first version of the rules because they were close enough to what Wabbit agreed with and because you were eager to take on the task, in order to have some control of nature of this forum. Which you prefer allow for certain kinds of nastiness and not others. All of this does not suggest that "the Mote" made decisions about what the RoE should contain.
"As far as "verbally assaulting" people with information that they've already made available on this forum, I'm not sure where Wabbit would make the call. Frankly, I think this would be unenforceable..."
It's not unenforceable at all, and in fact Wabbit has made the call adroitly in several cases already. In fact, not only is the rule eminently enforceable, but violations of it tend to be obviously out of bounds by most anyone's lights. 695. Angel-Five - 2/21/2000 12:16:10 AM Seguine more or less has the right of the ROE from what I remember. I implicitly trust Wabbit to maintain discipline and choose threads and thread hosts, and she has done a stellar job thus far. 696. Seguine - 2/21/2000 12:18:48 AM In any case, the Rules of Engagement should not be about especially accommodating CalGal, or anyone in particular, and so your input or the lack of it is actually beside the point. The point is establishing limits on behavior that make the forum conducive to intelligent discussion and creative antics without making the place a beach head from which cabals and idiots can operate at everyone else's expense. Abuse and harassment using personal info should be off-limits for the same reason disclosure of IDs should be off-limits: it violates privacy, which many people apparently consider very important.
As for more general "abuse", one can only hope that moderators will exercise sound judgment, since that is always the part of the RoE which is subject to the greatest interpretive lattitude. 697. CalGal - 2/21/2000 12:22:21 AM It's not unenforceable at all, and in fact Wabbit has made the call adroitly in several cases already.
As has been mentioned several times before, these are covered as "abuse", not "privacy". That's fine, and I support it. The nice thing about "abuse" is that it is deliberately open ended.
But if I understand you, you are seeking to make these sort of violations a matter of the privacy rule, not a matter of abuse. As such, I don't see how they are enforceable.
But my uneducated bet is that Wabbit shares your concerns about privacy (for very different reasons) and Alistair, who probably doesn't care one way or the other, needs Wabbit to consent to moderate this place, so you got to write (at least) the first version of the rules because they were close enough to what Wabbit agreed with and because you were eager to take on the task, in order to have some control of nature of this forum.
Oh, I see. Wabbit wants privacy for "good" reasons, I want privacy for "bad" reasons, and I jumped to take on the job because it suits my overall fell purpose to control the forum.
A few problems--Harper volunteered to do the RoE, she couldn't get it done before she went to Ireland, and I wrote it up when we had the problems with privacy violations in the first few weeks (you might remember them?) and it became clear we needed to articulate policy. I specifically wrote them up to mirror what we had at the Fray, since this had been something that the majority of members were comfortable with and had been used to for some number of years. As I've said, I also support them. But I didn't change them.
698. CalGal - 2/21/2000 12:23:31 AM But really, Seguine, why make this about me? Clearly, since I'm doing this all by myself--using Alistair's apathy and Wabbit's "good" privacy reasons as cover--there must be plenty of people who resent my imposition of personal values on this forum. Go start an insurgency. Demand an RoE rewrite. Expose the evil purpose of the wicked CalGal and return the Mote to the control of the dominion of righteousness and goodness.
Otherwise, quit blaming me. Like it or not, I don't run this forum. You can try to single me out but the fact is that I could not stop an RoE change by any means other than arguing against it as a Mote member, just like any other.
If Wabbit agreed that the RoE was to be changed because she felt the consensus was in support, then they'd be changed. Probably by me, it's true, but that's because we don't have a lot of people standing in line to write things up.
So if you want a policy change, get the masses moving. Otherwise, accept the fact that I'm not the one standing in your way.
699. Seguine - 2/21/2000 12:31:33 AM Re Cazart, Jay has it right in Message # 692. It's a ploy. The subject matter is too thin to warrant considering the thread seriously. If it weren't, I'd advocate letting Cazart host (perhaps under close scrutiny), but his idea is dim and the moderator ought to feel comfortable excluding dim thread topics that no one is seriously interested in. The basis of her exclusionary rule should be that creating such a thread would be a waste of her precious time. 700. Seguine - 2/21/2000 12:40:36 AM CalGal, you have spent the last two posts misrepresenting me in quotes. I didn't say, nor did I intend, the good vs. evil nonsense you attributed to me.
Perhaps there should be a rule about repeated and deliberate misrepresentations of others' remarks.
Of course, that would take out half the Mote... 701. Seguine - 2/21/2000 12:42:37 AM "If Wabbit agreed that the RoE was to be changed because she felt the consensus was in support, then they'd be changed. Probably by me, it's true, but that's because we don't have a lot of people standing in line to write things up."
Really?
Who has offered? Who has been asked?
702. CalGal - 2/21/2000 12:48:38 AM The "good vs. evil" was sarcasm, and I note that you completely ignore the substance of the post, so I'll restate without the "good and evil" offense.
You have represented the RoE as my design, and speculated that I wrote them to maintain control of this forum. You have speculated that I am able to achieve this because Wabbit supports my policies (but for different reasons, whatever that means) and that Alistair doesn't care, but he needs Wabbit.
My response is that I have no more control over this forum than you do. If you want the RoE changed, form a consensus that supports change and get Wabbit to agree. That's all you have to do. I have nothing to do with it.
Instead, I suspect that some of you would rather bitch about me than try to get things changed. If you failed at effecting change, you'd have to accept the fact that it's not really me in your way.
Much easier to skip all that and just complain about me. And it must be me, of course. Wabbit and Alistair--to say nothing of JJ and Jay--are so easily manipulated. 703. CalGal - 2/21/2000 12:52:54 AM Who has offered? Who has been asked?
Well, in this case, you'd have to start with, "Have we agreed a change is necessary?"
After that, if my rewrite was unpopular, I'd happily work until it was popular--or I'd turn it over to someone else if that was necessary.
One other thing, Seguine. You continually ignore one key point--the model we are using is the one that was in effect at the Fray. I didn't make it up out of wholecloth. You never bitched about this model at the Fray, although I'm willing to believe it bothered you. But when you represent the RoE as my own personal agenda, rather than a modified writeup of the Slate RoR, you make me wonder what the hell your point is. Why not acknowledge that much, at least? 704. dusty - 2/21/2000 1:18:04 AM CalGal
Ha, ha. You think that the Niner flap was a problem, but a host "going" bad wan't? Please.
That's not what I said. Saying something is a different issue is not the same as saying it isn't a problem. Try reading again. Please.
I'm not sure what you think is a more pressing issue, but I'm not claiming that this one is all that critical.
Well, you're the one who proposed it was time to have a debate over thread host selection. You say it's not all that critical, I questioned the need. Sounds like we agree. 705. IrvingSnodgrass - 2/21/2000 1:27:44 AM I haven't read through this thread in a while, and had a lot of back posts to wade through, er, consider carefully.
One thing A5 said in Message # 638 requires a response:
I guess part of my thinking is this: if everyone's real name is attached to what they say within the Mote, some people might think a little more about what they say, and we'd have a lot less stuff going on that would ever inspire someone to retaliate against a poster personally. Think about it.
If you... are aware that people will be able to connect your words to your IRL identity, are you going to make a practice of wandering around pissing in everyone's Wheaties?
Two points:
1) The reasons for wanting privacy can be very different from any you consider. I, for one, live in a country where the things I say could quite easily be used against me, and I'm not about to post things under my real name to give ammunition to those who might wish to do this. If you recall, I was in fact threatened with just this situation at the old place, which scared the shit out of me.
2) It isn't only the people who go around "pissing in everyone's Wheaties" who are at risk. I think you'll agree that I have been one of the more civil participants in this and the previous forum. But that didn't stop me from having to deal with a serious threat. Sure, it's easy to say the threat was meaningless. But I was the one facing the possibility of getting in trouble with the authorities in a nation I would never want to leave.
I am confident that the vast majority of participants here value the ability to use an anonymous ID if they choose. Anyone who wants to use their real name has the ability to do so, also. This situation allows everyone to do what they're comfortable with, and that's all that really matters. 706. CalGal - 2/21/2000 1:56:49 AM Dusty,
Well, you're the one who proposed it was time to have a debate over thread host selection.
I was trying to separate the two issues: whether or not we have a TT thread, the issue of thread host "standards" has not reached consensus. There are those who believe that anyone should be allowed to host, and those who believe that past behavior towards the forum is relevant. And I'm sure there are those who think the popularity of the host should matter.
I just didn't want that distinction to be lost. It's not so much that I think it's critical--although I'm not sure what you think is more critical--as it is I'd just as soon not revisit this again without a policy. 707. IrvingSnodgrass - 2/21/2000 2:05:20 AM I think Seguine's Message # 699 covers the situation nicely (and by happy coincidence, says basically what I said in the Suggestions thread).
If we need a policy, here it is:
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Everyone is eligible to be suggest a thread or volunteer to be a thread host. If there is interest in a thread, the topic is a reasonable one, and there is a host, the moderator will start the thread. The Moderator has the final approval on thread topics and thread hosts.
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I really don't think we need to define it further than that. You open up a can of woms when you try to define all possible situations, and write a policy to reflect the latest issue. Leave it up to the moderator. That's why she gets the big bucks. 708. JayAckroyd - 2/21/2000 2:05:22 AM Actually, Seguine, Irv feels quite strongly about privacy issues as well, and I think he, as much as anyone, is responsible for the resemblance to the Fray rules.
I happen to disagree; I'd prefer a transparent forum, but that is not a majority view--or even a plurality view. What is really making this work is wabbit, not the policies. Different policies would still only work if they were enforced with the same grace as wabbit.
At the time, I noted that the fearful ones will always win this argument, because the transparency decision removes the anonymity option, while the anonymity decision preserves the transparency option.
That's what happened then, and I'm sure Spence could show us a model for why that was the optimal choice. Ace and CG made a lot of noise, but that wasn't what carried the day. 709. IrvingSnodgrass - 2/21/2000 2:07:07 AM Well, that works except for the extranneous "be." 710. IrvingSnodgrass - 2/21/2000 2:07:50 AM (I meant my 707)
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