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717. ChristinO - 2/21/2000 2:33:29 AM Okay, sorry. that was snotty of me. I'm cranky this morning. I will endeavor to be either helpful or silent. 718. IrvingSnodgrass - 2/21/2000 2:34:56 AM Cal:
Well, I'd always rather a policy. It's the wonk in me. But then, "the Moderator has final approval on thread hosts" sounds like a policy to me--and one I agree with.
Hey, what I presented above IS a policy, and one I think we could all live with. If there isn't any opposition, let's make it an addition to our policies. Now is the chance for all assembled to speak up. 719. CalGal - 2/21/2000 2:41:09 AM Hey, what I presented above IS a policy, and one I think we could all live with.
I realize I'm often unclear. But I'm agreeing with you. 720. ChristinO - 2/21/2000 2:42:54 AM It's got my vote. 721. Angel-Five - 2/21/2000 2:54:09 AM I agree with Irv in theory about strengthening the rules covering abuse, but in practice I find that deletion and moving posts to the Inferno work well to keep discussions from devolving into full-blown meltdowns. Oh, and CalGal doesn't run this forum. Remember all the grief in the early days about that? 722. IrvingSnodgrass - 2/21/2000 2:59:42 AM A5:
I don't know how it could be done, or even if it's possible. But I thought the ideas Seguine raised deserved discussion. I would love to see a more civil Mote, but I don't really have a problem with the level of civility in general. It's much better than the old place.
I like to see differences of opinion, and I like to see good arguments and reasoned debate. And flaming throws all that out the window. When I think of the greatest debates I've read here and in the old place, they all involve mutual respect and a commitment to keeping to ideas rather than personalities. 723. Seguine - 2/21/2000 3:02:20 AM CalGal,
Note that I'm no longer interested in attempting to converse with you.
Christin, Jay, et al.,
My objection to the original RoE has not been that it prohibited violations of privacy but that it was poorly written and so allowed for certain kinds of loopholes while expressly closing others, thereby privileging one set of concerns (e.g., concerns about privacy of RL names) while deprioritizing others (concerns about privacy of other kinds of info, about attracting newcomers, about egregious abusiveness of various sorts, etc.).
As to who wrote the rules, I've said what my impression was. If it's incorrect, fine, but why should I or anyone else (and my impressions are as much a result of gossip as anything) not be absolutely certain of who wrote the rules, under what circumstances, and whether opposing views were duly considered? Moreover, why should anyone believe that a consortium of Harper, ChristinO, and ultimately CalGal--who according to Christin did indeed, finally, write the rules--truly took into account the diverse views of people like Irv, Jay, or A-5? Sounds like a partisan effort to me.
The way I see it, the RoE should have been written summarily, with input from any and all sources as they saw fit, by Alistair and/or Wabbit. Failing that, several competing and very succinct drafts should have been written by a disinterested designated writer after a STRUCTURED debate. A vote of the membership, with deciding power accorded the moderator, should have determined the outcome of the rules.
724. Seguine - 2/21/2000 3:02:53 AM I also think the RoE should be modifiable any time the moderator changes, and should, to accommodate changes in the membership, be open to ratification or ammendment periodically (every 12 months?); or whenever the moderator deems there to be a suitably pressing reason for a review (i.e., an emergency of some sort). Otherwise, existing rules should prevail and changing them should not be a matter of stirring up foment and gathering constituencies and so on.
725. CalGal - 2/21/2000 3:13:31 AM I don't really see any problem with the civility in this place. Yeah, things get ugly on occasion, but I think overall the level is far higher than at the Fray--at least that I recall.
I think the specific issue that Seguine raises is the use of information in one context (a debate or discussion) that was revealed in another (social interaction).
I've had this occur to me often, and pretty much figure it par for the course. In the two situations where I've been accused of it, I was genuinely surprised, and apologized.
I see no reason why repeated use of certain information couldn't be considered abusive, after the participant requested that it not be used. But if the information was available, I don't see how the first use could be considered a privacy violation. Subsequent use after a request can be deleted for abuse. I'm really not clear why that isn't enough.
I am not clear, though, if this ban is to go even further.
Suppose I regularly mention that I have a son in the Cafe, and in some other discussion a person insults me by saying that I'm a lousy mother (this happens reasonably often). Should this be considered off limits? The person shouldn't be able to refer to the fact that I'm a mom because I haven't mentioned it in that discussion and we must keep personal information out of debates?
That seems unworkable, unenforceable, and hell, I'm not sure I'd want it even if it were. 726. CalGal - 2/21/2000 3:29:06 AM Moreover, why should anyone believe that a consortium of Harper, ChristinO, and ultimately CalGal--who according to Christin did indeed, finally, write the rules--truly took into account the diverse views of people like Irv, Jay, or A-5? Sounds like a partisan effort to me.
The reason you should believe it is because the discussion took place in this thread. Please start at Message # 348 and continue. Anyone who wanted to participate could do so. Note the consent and involvement of Wabbit.
And next time, Seguine, try reading back first. 727. Seguine - 2/21/2000 3:33:16 AM Now that Calgal is addressing something substantive:
"Suppose I regularly mention that I have a son in the Cafe, and in some other discussion a person insults me by saying that I'm a lousy mother (this happens reasonably often). Should this be considered off limits?"
Why not? It's certainly puerile. Worthy of a Cazart or a Stone, whom everyone seems ready to ban.
"The person shouldn't be able to refer to the fact that I'm a mom because I haven't mentioned it in that discussion and we must keep personal information out of debates?"
No, the rule I enunciated was that personal info should not be used to harass or abuse. The moderator, of course, would have sole authority to determine whether such a violation occurred and what to do about it (i.e., which punitive sanctions to apply or not apply), but standard policy should be, as it is now de facto if not precisely de jure, to delete such remarks immediately. 728. Seguine - 2/21/2000 3:41:39 AM "I've had this occur to me often, and pretty much figure it par for the course. In the two situations where I've been accused of it, I was genuinely surprised, and apologized."
Perhaps you were surprised because you didn't know no better; or perhaps you were surprised because you didn't expect to get caught. Either way, an explicit rule would have lessened your shock. (As for your apologies, they were surely given about as much credence as you give mine.) 729. CalGal - 2/21/2000 3:45:20 AM No, I was surprised because the information was regularly referred to online, so I didn't consider it any more of a privacy violation than I would a reference to my son.
730. CalGal - 2/21/2000 3:46:25 AM No, the rule I enunciated was that personal info should not be used to harass or abuse.
Well, calling me a lousy mom is technically abusive, and that's what I was referring to. As such, I think it's unworkable and unenforceable. 731. SpenceMirrlees - 2/21/2000 4:08:56 AM Speaking of the existence of children doesn't seem very personal to me, and calling someone a lousy mother doesn't seem more abusive or personal than calling them an idiot. 732. Seguine - 2/21/2000 4:11:12 AM "Well, calling me a lousy mom is technically abusive, and that's what I was referring to. As such, I think it's unworkable and unenforceable."
Yes, it's abusive, but abuse alone has never been taken seriously as an offense in this forum; abuse alone is tough to legislate against. Abuse that employs private info is, I think, recognized by almost everyone as being pretty clearly actionable.
Or perhaps not everyone. You claim that you have only been accused of violating this standard twice, but I can think of more than two instances. This, for example....
733. Seguine - 2/21/2000 4:14:11 AM Adrianne, msg 545 addressed to Wabbit:
Recently, some of my personal information was revealed here on The Mote - stuff I had revealed on another forum. The motive was pure malice, it couldn't have been inadvertant, coming as it did from out of the blue and appropos of absolutely nothing being discussed.
I went to the RoE because I remembered (I thought) that we had made this a no-no (bringing up personal information that had not been revealed ON THE MOTE without express permission). I see that I misremembered, that that policy was not adopted.
I'd like to see that issue addressed again, iffen we're going to have another round of adjustments to the RoE.
734. Seguine - 2/21/2000 4:14:39 AM CalGal's courteous response (msg 552):
The motive was not pure malice, you little piece of pompom fluff. You regularly discussed your spouse's occupation on the Fray, and refer to your spouse as a "Officer Friendly" on this forum. It most certainly was appropos to what being discussed--you just didn't think the connection was relevant.
I had no idea you considered it private information. As I said to you in the Inferno, if it had been, I would have apologized immediately.
We made it clear that we could not put the genie back into the bottle. If someone releases the information at any time, it is no longer private. I have already mentioned this as a relevant data point with Stone, who used his name as a login at one point. The mere use of the name does not entail a violation, IMO. What does constitute a violation, IMO, is the malicious use of information about another person that the poster knows is no longer openly available. That is the category that Cellar's use of Stone's real name falls under.
Continued use of private information after requests not to use it can be considered abusive, and there is still an out in the RoE for abuse.
Were you to publicly request that you didn't want your spouse's occupation referred to ever again, then I would comply with that request out of courtesy. However, that includes you not referring to his occupation either, so give up on "Officer Friendly". 735. Seguine - 2/21/2000 4:33:35 AM "Speaking of the existence of children doesn't seem very personal to me..."
A person's name doesn't seem very personal to me. Others of us prioritize various personal info--occupation, affiliations, names of colleagues, photographs--differently still. When making rules, why get into details that privilege exactly one set of concerns, unless the rules are intended to cater to one group of people?
"...and calling someone a lousy mother doesn't seem more abusive or personal than calling them an idiot."
Once again, the standard I propose does not depend on a definition of "abuse" that rises above others, nor on a definition of "personal" that excludes all personal exchanges. It depends on personal information being used to abuse (or attack, or threaten, or insult, or harass).
Honest mistakes will happen, and such references would surely be deleted by hosts upon request in order to protect personal info from becoming ever more broadly disseminated. But the same concerns that apply for revelations of rl ids apply to revelation of other kinds of information, and if they are to be fair the rules should acknowledge this. 736. Seguine - 2/21/2000 4:35:06 AM CalGal's courteous response (msg 552):
The motive was not pure malice, you little piece of pompom fluff. You regularly discussed your spouse's occupation on the Fray, and refer to your spouse as a "Officer Friendly" on this forum. It most certainly was appropos to what being discussed--you just didn't think the connection was relevant.
I had no idea you considered it private information. As I said to you in the Inferno, if it had been, I would have apologized immediately.
We made it clear that we could not put the genie back into the bottle. If someone releases the information at any time, it is no longer private. I have already mentioned this as a relevant data point with Stone, who used his name as a login at one point. The mere use of the name does not entail a violation, IMO. What does constitute a violation, IMO, is the malicious use of information about another person that the poster knows is no longer openly available. That is the category that Cellar's use of Stone's real name falls under.
Continued use of private information after requests not to use it can be considered abusive, and there is still an out in the RoE for abuse.
Were you to publicly request that you didn't want your spouse's occupation referred to ever again, then I would comply with that request out of courtesy. However, that includes you not referring to his occupation either, so give up on "Officer Friendly".
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