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738. Angel-Five - 2/21/2000 4:56:02 AM It isn't illegal IRL to learn someone's name, number, address, or their history. It isn't illegal to publicly display that information about another person. It seems strange, no? I mean, after all, you'd think that if this was such a pressing concern it'd make sense to restrict that information from being spread IRL, because the people who would learn it IRL have on average much greater access to you than someone who reads your words in a chatroom. Yet the information is not restricted. Threats and abuse on the other hand are highly restricted IRL. Strange how that system works, and stranger how we're ignoring it. 739. ChristinO - 2/21/2000 5:16:03 AM "why should I or anyone else (and my impressions are as much a result of gossip as anything) not be absolutely certain of who wrote the rules, under what circumstances, and whether opposing views were duly considered?"
I'm not sure. I'm assuming it's because you didn't participate in the open discussion regarding the RoE that took place over the course of several days.
"Moreover, why should anyone believe that a consortium of Harper, ChristinO, and ultimately CalGal--who according to Christin did indeed, finally, write the rules--truly took into account the diverse views of people like Irv, Jay, or A-5? Sounds like a partisan effort to me."
Gee, I think maybe the idea that we've been operating under these rules for some time now and that they have been refined more than once when the community saw a need would be a hint. The reason we got to do it was because NO ONE ELSE VOLUNTEERED. Certainly not you. Pellenilsson was interested but had to decline due to lack of time to commit. This didn't take place in some smoky back room someplace. If adjustments to the RoE are desired by the community then let's discuss it but to show up five months after their inception and claim that some sinister cabal went behind the backs of the rest of the forum to make their own rules and dictate to the people who really matter in this forum is paranoid bullshit.
740. Angel-Five - 2/21/2000 5:18:26 AM There seem to be some reasons, specific to cyber-space, for more careful control of real life information. Some of us live in places where punitive action might conceivably be taken against them for their statements in this place. Some of us worry about someone latching onto our name and stalking us or choosing us for their next murder (which seems to be to be false and silly to me, but might genuinely concern some). Their concerns should be voiced and seen to. Of course, some of us might be more concerned because of their place of employment -- i.e. that a supervisor or a contractor might see them here, later return to the site, and see that their employee or their contracted professional is apparently spending a lot of time they're paid for on-line in a discussion forum. I somewhat suspect that this is of rather pressing concern to a few of our members. beliefs Personally, I have very little sympathy for that, though I do understand that some other people have genuine reasons to be concerned about the wellbeing of their family and themselves and I'm more sympathetic to that. Yet here's the thing -- banning the use of personal information will not prevent the spread of that information (as we have all seen) and anyone obsessed enough to use that information can find a way to get it and spread it. How? Well, this IS an anonymous forum, as you all know. Poster X can come in as Fake Y, cozy up to the people they despise, start emailing them, and eventually suss the info out of them or their friends or pick it up in a slip of the tongue. Who can know the difference? It's happened in the Fray. Especially if the poster in question claims not to be worried about their name being known by other known Motiers, just by people they don't 'know' OL. 741. JudithAtHome - 2/21/2000 5:25:09 AM But if someone "cozied up to" another via e-mail and released personal info about themselves to that person, it would be on the head of the releasee, wouldn't it? 742. Angel-Five - 2/21/2000 5:26:26 AM to show up five months after their inception and
claim that some sinister cabal went behind the backs of
the rest of the forum to make their own rules and dictate
to the people who really matter in this forum is paranoid
bullshit. Who is suggesting that? 743. Angel-Five - 2/21/2000 5:30:45 AM But if someone "cozied up to" another via e-mail and
released personal info about themselves to that person, it
would be on the head of the releasee, wouldn't it? Not in this forum, apparently, which is one of the reasons I scratch my head when I think about the justification for the privacy rules. Yet the threat to misuse that information is actionable (Christ, now I'm saying that word) regardless of where or how it is learned, and it seems to me that threats, and not the information itself, is the natural focal point for moderator intervention. 744. PsychProf - 2/21/2000 5:32:23 AM Irv's Message # 707 is fine with me...thanks to Cazart, we are having some reinvigorating discussions. 745. ChristinO - 2/21/2000 5:36:59 AM Angel,
Valid observations. But we have more options available IRL for dealing with those who abuse our privacy and trust not to mention the fact that people are less prone to those kinds of abuses when face to face. IRL I tend to avoid those I dislike or distrust but it doesn't require me to avoid those I do like. In an online forum we cannot pick and choose who gets to participate according to everyone's personal whims therefore we may associate with those we do not repsect or who do not respect us in order to associate with those we do. Because of this I don't find it unreasonable to have stricter standards of privacy than might be enforceable in the world.
746. Angel-Five - 2/21/2000 5:41:53 AM But we have more options available
IRL for dealing with those who abuse our privacy and
trust not to mention the fact that people are less prone
to those kinds of abuses when face to face. What other options? I don't think I can agree to this, simply because I've seen a lot more face to face 'abuse' than here in our cozy little OL nest. And you don't have to associate IRL with someone for them to take an active dislike to you -- and it is very easy to learn someone's personal information IRL whether or not you tell it to them. 747. ChristinO - 2/21/2000 5:42:13 AM Sorry, Angel, 745 is in response to 738 & 740.
Re:742
Seguine seems to be under the impression that if CalGal didn't singlehandedly invent the RoE without approval or input from anyone else in the forum then Harper and I were her henchmen in drafting a policy that everyone here would have to adhere to but to which they were not allowed to contribute.
748. Angel-Five - 2/21/2000 5:44:49 AM I mean, what about work? You go to work where there are people you don't like, right? You go to the store where there are people you don't respect, right? You do any number of similar things and put up with people you'd rather not, because overall you are rewarded for doing so. It is the same here. 749. JudithAtHome - 2/21/2000 5:45:10 AM I seem to recall y'all almost begging people for input and help with drafting the ROE... 750. cazart - 2/21/2000 5:47:46 AM Face it, folks, the RoE are so broad and general, they are virtually meaningless. And that's not a criticism; it's merely an observation. Nor is their vagueness a bad thing--it would be impossible to clearly spell out a comprehensive set of rules or policies.
The main problem is that the RoE are enforced unevenly and inconsistently. Furthermore, it is clear that Mote powers-that-be don't understand fundamental concepts of privacy and security or at least pretend not to.
CalGal's "lousy mother" example is just silly. If you bring up your parental status (usually in some effort to demonstrate that you know everything there is to know about parenting), you really shouldn't be surprised if it is used against you. It has nothing to do with privacy and/or security.
In one of my periodic bannings from theMote, my offense was to link to a picture of another Motehead. I was banned despite the fact that this picture had been previously linked to, in this forum, and revealed no RL info whatsoever. When I complained about posts being forged in my name ( a Motehead was posting under my name ), the primary reasoin given condoning this behavior was that even though the posts were forged, my pseudonym 'protected' me.
Different rules. Different folks. 751. Angel-Five - 2/21/2000 5:50:09 AM ChristinO I didn't pick that up from her reading. What I did pick up was the sense that the drafters of the ROE represented their own interests and not necessarily everyone else's. I also remember from the time that there was a bit of appeasement going on WRT the ROE. The fact that it's now up for discussion would indicate that they aren't rules (or at the least aren't worded in a manner) which everyone agrees with, especially in the way the emphasis seems to run on them. 752. ChristinO - 2/21/2000 5:50:27 AM Angel,
Yes it is easy to learn people's personal information IRL. I'm not disputing that. If we could prevent it I'm sure we would.
In real life I can place a restraining order on someone who harasses me. I can sue for harrassment or libel or slander or invasion of privacy. I can also get my boyfriend to go to their house and beat the everlivin' shit out of 'em.
Online without some punishment for abuse of privacy my only option is to quit the forum. 753. Seguine - 2/21/2000 5:56:55 AM "I'm not sure. I'm assuming it's because you didn't participate in the open discussion regarding the RoE that took place over the course of several days."
An "open discussion" which took place in a register-only subthread. (I'm touched you think I should have participated, but it occurred during the time I absented myself from discussions in the Mote in order to allow bad feelings to die down in the wake of my posting a cipher of CalGal's rl name.)
Look over that "open" discussion and ask yourself, at what point were the RoE composed in essentially finished form? How many motiers had offered their views about the rules before they were complete, in the form in which they ultimately were published? As of Adrianne's and Spudboy's less than sanguine remarks, for instance, it appears to me as though the rules as originally formulated by the first 4 or 5 participants were cast in stone. As of post 545, a grand total of 23 people had remarked at all, and that includes Wabbit, not to mention spurious posts by people like Spiderman and Nostradamus. How many users are registered in the Mote?
754. PelleNilsson - 2/21/2000 5:57:07 AM I confirm what ChristinO has said. I was interested in helping to draft the RoE but something came up. It was very clear at the time that anybody who thought they could contribute was welcome to do so. The exact wording was discussed in open forum.
It is true that CalGal put the words together, but to suggest that the RoE is a "CalGal product" is ridiculous and childish beyond words.
Now, I suggest that anybody who is not happy with the RoE as they stand now should come up with a comprehensive new version.
755. Angel-Five - 2/21/2000 5:57:35 AM My trust in this forum is pretty much my trust in Wabbit, Irv, Jay and Al (I think I shall call him 'Al' from now on) and now Indiana. I trust the first four implicitly and have just gotten to know the last, so the trust will take a while there. I trust in their ability to fairly and effectively govern far more than I place trust in the RoE. In my experience they have not played favorites and I'm simply content to let them govern with the RoE as vague guidelines, not hard-and-fast-rules. If the RoE are to be the Constitution of the Mote, then they need to be much more exactly written and broken down into concrete terms -- that's not a slam at your writing, ChristinO, just a personal observation. What isn't good, in my eyes, is a bloody lot of argument over a handful of very vague rules where people try to finesse the rules to their best advantage and there's a billion interpretations floating around. That seems to be what we have now. 756. Seguine - 2/21/2000 5:57:38 AM Some opinions appeared to have been considered. Others evidently were not, for whatever reasons. But throughout the exchange, CalGal did indeed "shout down" (to use Irv's verbiage) views she disagreed with, and used language very clearly intended to convey to anyone who wasn't in the know that she was involved in decision making. So please don't cry "paranoia" now, and please don't invite me to cite the avalanche of examples I could quote to show that CalGal intended to convey about herself more authority than she possessed.
Incidentally, why should it ever have been a secret that you and Harper were involved in drafting the RoE? Why didn't the entire membership of the Mote receive email inviting everyone to weigh in on the topic?
The answer, of course, is that there was an "emergency", precipitated by me, which required that the RoE be clarified. But I think an urgency existed beforehand, and others do too, whether or not you care to acknowledge it. And I think there's still dissatisfaction out there, otherwise this topic would not keep bringing itself up. 757. Seguine - 2/21/2000 6:00:26 AM Christin: "The reason we got to do it was because NO ONE ELSE VOLUNTEERED. Certainly not you."
That's interesting. How would you know?
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