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8068. alistairConnor - 3/13/2006 11:33:38 PM Once we understand another life by entering it, by seeing it from inside, we may both pardon and forgive a criminal action.
Is this your greatest fear, Uz? That if you understand the devil, you will become like him?
You lack confidence in yourself, perhaps? 8069. alistairConnor - 3/13/2006 11:34:46 PM Don't read Dostoïevsky.
You might forgive terrorists.
Or become one. 8070. anomie - 3/14/2006 12:08:41 AM Once you understand the devil, you become less like yourself and more like him - no? Not sure confidence is a factor. 8071. uzmakk - 3/14/2006 3:49:22 PM It is a question of sympathy for the murderer not one of becoming him. My greatest fear? Hardly. Yes, I am a snivelling coward and lack self-confidence, but that has nothing to do with the argument.
re: Dostoievsky
Very much to the point. Likewise, Arky's fandom of MNM. I have no argument with the pov that society is imperfect. Down with Bush! Down with Bush! Down with Bush!
I have heard a book called MegaCity(?) mentioned on NPR. The thrust of the book: if this is the shape of the future, and it appears to be, God help us.Surely some Motie or other has read it? There will be a great deal of reason to commit crime and there will be a great deal of it. It will be very understandable, what will we/they/the state do? Captain Vere in his fanatic resolve to maintain strict discipline aboard ship remains fully human, and tragic.* Etc., etc.
8072. uzmakk - 3/14/2006 3:51:44 PM My second sentence was to be, Of course the argument can be extended. Perhaps I should have left it in. 8073. alistairConnor - 3/14/2006 9:12:37 PM Uz, I think you have a conception of justice which is radically different from mine : though they may well converge with respect to outcomes, they derive from different roots.
Culturally, (DANGER : GROSS STEREOTYPING AHEAD), Americans are wedded to the idea of popular justice : offenses are determined by what the community (or its dominant, right-thinking element) deems offensive; those who offend will be punished according to the desiderata of the right-thinkers. This is organically tied up with the fact that you elect your judges.
I take a more detached view of what justice is. I do not wish for my animal pulsions, or some socio-religious rationalization of them, to be visited on offenders. I wish such matters to be handled dispassionately by professionals, who are accountable only very indirectly to public opinion (or to a government). The aim, after all, is to preserve society from disorders, and protect individuals from both wrongdoers and injustice.
In this framework, society is not endangered if I choose to try to understand, or empathise with, or even forgive a criminal. To abandon this capacity would be to diminish my humanity. However odious the crime, the criminal is a human being, and respectable as such. 8074. uzmakk - 3/14/2006 11:59:20 PM What an excellent post, Connor. I am off to a brainstorming session with the County Commissioners regarding tourism. We are going to put our primitive minds together and see what we come up with.
Actually, I am attending as a mere citizen and this is billed as a brainstorming session, but more than likely just window dressing in the name of democracy. Naturally I will bring up the quarry. In a valley as promising as mine is for tourism why would we want a quarry? 8075. Ms. No - 3/15/2006 12:11:48 AM AC,
Where do your judges and laws come from if not the people?
I understand and even agree with the view that our laws should not be determined by the current fashion or public faddishness, but at the same time there is nothing truly "outside" to draw from. We can go to great lengths to be calm, reasonable, rational beings and still we cannot help but reflect the views of our times. It's how we end up with slavery under such a brilliant document as the US Constitution.
Any fans here of Brecht's Three Penny Opera? 8076. wonkers2 - 3/15/2006 12:15:39 AM Yes. Great show. I've seen it a couple of times and have a tape of Lotte Lenya singing Brecht and Weill. 8077. anomie - 3/15/2006 12:23:51 AM "The aim, after all, is to preserve society from disorders, and protect individuals from both wrongdoers and injustice."
Your last word covers a lot AC. If we go inside the criminal mind and find the crime was a reaction to the injustice of society, or necessary to survival (physical, mental or emotional), we may bend toward forgiveness. I'm sure you know this generally, but even the most evil acts might be explained away by such factors, real or imagined. Nevertheless, punishment or isolation must be inflicted, even though it may not be perfect justice. It is as you say preservation.
8078. anomie - 3/15/2006 12:26:22 AM MsNo, would you recommend it?
Anyone endured any of the Beckett on Film series? 8079. alistairConnor - 3/15/2006 12:39:56 AM Yes No, but there is a difference between democracy and mob rule.
What about that Moussaoui case? I admire that judge, she's a real professional. 8080. wonkers2 - 3/15/2006 12:48:29 AM Threepenny Opera is one of the all time great shows. Another is "The Fantastics." Last I heard it was the longest running show in history in NYC. 8081. wonkers2 - 3/15/2006 12:49:05 AM (Excuse me for butting in, Ali." 8082. Ms. No - 3/15/2006 1:10:45 AM Anomie,
Most definitely, but I think some of the message depends on which version you see. There are several translations out and to my knowledge the one truest to the original is not licensed for production in the U.S. The story isn't greatly altered, I don't believe, but the language is softened sometimes a LOT.
The reason I bring it up during this particular discussion is because one of Brecht's main goals was to distance the audience from the characters of the play so that rather than empathizing and getting caught up in sentimental emotions they might look more rationally at the action and engage in self-reflection be it personal or more usually cultural and political.
Brecht attempted this with many of his plays, particularly his "teaching plays", but I think it's most easily seen with Three Penny because in the end the audience is called upon to vote between characters and this sentimentality or faddishness in justice that we've been talking about really comes to light.
8083. Ms. No - 3/15/2006 1:17:26 AM AC,
Democracy can be described as a tyranny of the majority since a pure Democracy means that 51 people decide what is best for the other 49, but I'm still not sure where you're diffrentiating between how U.S. laws are formed and how French laws are formed (I assume youre talking about French laws as opposed to NZ, but either is fine).
8084. anomie - 3/15/2006 1:21:15 AM Ah, I see this is a musical, which explains why I would never have noticed it. Being a musical is bad enough, but I really can't stand even threeminutes of opera singing. 8085. Jenerator - 3/15/2006 1:28:31 AM Of all of the plays and musicals and operas I have been to, I have never seen Phanton of the Opera. My mom is taking me for my birthday! 8086. anomie - 3/15/2006 1:39:10 AM I fast-forwarded through the DVD. But I hope you enjoy it. I managed to sit through Les Miz in London, only because I like the story. Didn't go back in to Cats after intermission. 8087. uzmakk - 3/15/2006 2:47:58 AM Very exciting, 8 month plan, looking for input, perfect opportunity. Stop the quarry, promote the cafe(my dining room)and the bindery. Promote a development plan for the valley based on tourism. Its time for bare knuckles with the local judiciary. I love a good fight.
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