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8072. uzmakk - 3/14/2006 3:51:44 PM My second sentence was to be, Of course the argument can be extended. Perhaps I should have left it in. 8073. alistairConnor - 3/14/2006 9:12:37 PM Uz, I think you have a conception of justice which is radically different from mine : though they may well converge with respect to outcomes, they derive from different roots.
Culturally, (DANGER : GROSS STEREOTYPING AHEAD), Americans are wedded to the idea of popular justice : offenses are determined by what the community (or its dominant, right-thinking element) deems offensive; those who offend will be punished according to the desiderata of the right-thinkers. This is organically tied up with the fact that you elect your judges.
I take a more detached view of what justice is. I do not wish for my animal pulsions, or some socio-religious rationalization of them, to be visited on offenders. I wish such matters to be handled dispassionately by professionals, who are accountable only very indirectly to public opinion (or to a government). The aim, after all, is to preserve society from disorders, and protect individuals from both wrongdoers and injustice.
In this framework, society is not endangered if I choose to try to understand, or empathise with, or even forgive a criminal. To abandon this capacity would be to diminish my humanity. However odious the crime, the criminal is a human being, and respectable as such. 8074. uzmakk - 3/14/2006 11:59:20 PM What an excellent post, Connor. I am off to a brainstorming session with the County Commissioners regarding tourism. We are going to put our primitive minds together and see what we come up with.
Actually, I am attending as a mere citizen and this is billed as a brainstorming session, but more than likely just window dressing in the name of democracy. Naturally I will bring up the quarry. In a valley as promising as mine is for tourism why would we want a quarry? 8075. Ms. No - 3/15/2006 12:11:48 AM AC,
Where do your judges and laws come from if not the people?
I understand and even agree with the view that our laws should not be determined by the current fashion or public faddishness, but at the same time there is nothing truly "outside" to draw from. We can go to great lengths to be calm, reasonable, rational beings and still we cannot help but reflect the views of our times. It's how we end up with slavery under such a brilliant document as the US Constitution.
Any fans here of Brecht's Three Penny Opera? 8076. wonkers2 - 3/15/2006 12:15:39 AM Yes. Great show. I've seen it a couple of times and have a tape of Lotte Lenya singing Brecht and Weill. 8077. anomie - 3/15/2006 12:23:51 AM "The aim, after all, is to preserve society from disorders, and protect individuals from both wrongdoers and injustice."
Your last word covers a lot AC. If we go inside the criminal mind and find the crime was a reaction to the injustice of society, or necessary to survival (physical, mental or emotional), we may bend toward forgiveness. I'm sure you know this generally, but even the most evil acts might be explained away by such factors, real or imagined. Nevertheless, punishment or isolation must be inflicted, even though it may not be perfect justice. It is as you say preservation.
8078. anomie - 3/15/2006 12:26:22 AM MsNo, would you recommend it?
Anyone endured any of the Beckett on Film series? 8079. alistairConnor - 3/15/2006 12:39:56 AM Yes No, but there is a difference between democracy and mob rule.
What about that Moussaoui case? I admire that judge, she's a real professional. 8080. wonkers2 - 3/15/2006 12:48:29 AM Threepenny Opera is one of the all time great shows. Another is "The Fantastics." Last I heard it was the longest running show in history in NYC. 8081. wonkers2 - 3/15/2006 12:49:05 AM (Excuse me for butting in, Ali." 8082. Ms. No - 3/15/2006 1:10:45 AM Anomie,
Most definitely, but I think some of the message depends on which version you see. There are several translations out and to my knowledge the one truest to the original is not licensed for production in the U.S. The story isn't greatly altered, I don't believe, but the language is softened sometimes a LOT.
The reason I bring it up during this particular discussion is because one of Brecht's main goals was to distance the audience from the characters of the play so that rather than empathizing and getting caught up in sentimental emotions they might look more rationally at the action and engage in self-reflection be it personal or more usually cultural and political.
Brecht attempted this with many of his plays, particularly his "teaching plays", but I think it's most easily seen with Three Penny because in the end the audience is called upon to vote between characters and this sentimentality or faddishness in justice that we've been talking about really comes to light.
8083. Ms. No - 3/15/2006 1:17:26 AM AC,
Democracy can be described as a tyranny of the majority since a pure Democracy means that 51 people decide what is best for the other 49, but I'm still not sure where you're diffrentiating between how U.S. laws are formed and how French laws are formed (I assume youre talking about French laws as opposed to NZ, but either is fine).
8084. anomie - 3/15/2006 1:21:15 AM Ah, I see this is a musical, which explains why I would never have noticed it. Being a musical is bad enough, but I really can't stand even threeminutes of opera singing. 8085. Jenerator - 3/15/2006 1:28:31 AM Of all of the plays and musicals and operas I have been to, I have never seen Phanton of the Opera. My mom is taking me for my birthday! 8086. anomie - 3/15/2006 1:39:10 AM I fast-forwarded through the DVD. But I hope you enjoy it. I managed to sit through Les Miz in London, only because I like the story. Didn't go back in to Cats after intermission. 8087. uzmakk - 3/15/2006 2:47:58 AM Very exciting, 8 month plan, looking for input, perfect opportunity. Stop the quarry, promote the cafe(my dining room)and the bindery. Promote a development plan for the valley based on tourism. Its time for bare knuckles with the local judiciary. I love a good fight. 8088. alistairconnor - 3/15/2006 12:27:35 PM Les Miz : saw it in NZ with a mostly Australian cast... yeah great story, but no memorable songs. Of the modern French musicals, Notre Dame de Paris is better (my choir has one of the songs in our repertoire : Ave Maria paiën) 8089. uzmakk - 3/15/2006 3:43:52 PM Conner,
I really do appreciate your post. I do have questions. All I have time to say right now is that I am reading William Hazlitt on The Pleasure of Hating and loving it. 8090. Ms. No - 3/15/2006 7:29:18 PM Anomie,
3-Penny isn't remotely operatic but it is definitely a musical play. Kurt Weill did the score for this one so it's full of marches and beer-hall songs and really insistent, aggressive rhythms. Then you'll get a song that sounds a bit langorous and maybe even sweet until you notice what the lyrics are about and then you get dumped into a kind of hissing, spitting, spoken part.
Brecht's musicals aren't meant to be pretty or "musical" in the sense of Gilbert & Sullivan or Rogers & Hammerstein. Brecht used songs as a tool to remind the audience that what they were watching wasn't real. That they were watching a play, a representation. He'd have characters directly address the audience, mingle among them, hold up placards that said things like "Don't look so sentimental", turn their backs on the audience.
So, if done in the manner Brecht intended, none of his musicals should really resemble what most people think of as a "musical". They certainly don't look anything like Andrew Lloyd Webber's works. Brecht's influence has been so great, though, that you've probably seen more of him than you know. Everyone has been influenced by him at this point to some degree.
Woody Allen has a film called Shadows & Fog which has a lot of ties to 3-Penny as well as Kafka and other giants of German Expressionism. Much of the film's score is taken either directly from Weill's Army Song or based closely on it.
8091. PelleNilsson - 3/15/2006 8:00:34 PM You are displaying a great deal of insight here, Ms No.
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