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8083. Ms. No - 3/15/2006 1:17:26 AM AC,
Democracy can be described as a tyranny of the majority since a pure Democracy means that 51 people decide what is best for the other 49, but I'm still not sure where you're diffrentiating between how U.S. laws are formed and how French laws are formed (I assume youre talking about French laws as opposed to NZ, but either is fine).
8084. anomie - 3/15/2006 1:21:15 AM Ah, I see this is a musical, which explains why I would never have noticed it. Being a musical is bad enough, but I really can't stand even threeminutes of opera singing. 8085. Jenerator - 3/15/2006 1:28:31 AM Of all of the plays and musicals and operas I have been to, I have never seen Phanton of the Opera. My mom is taking me for my birthday! 8086. anomie - 3/15/2006 1:39:10 AM I fast-forwarded through the DVD. But I hope you enjoy it. I managed to sit through Les Miz in London, only because I like the story. Didn't go back in to Cats after intermission. 8087. uzmakk - 3/15/2006 2:47:58 AM Very exciting, 8 month plan, looking for input, perfect opportunity. Stop the quarry, promote the cafe(my dining room)and the bindery. Promote a development plan for the valley based on tourism. Its time for bare knuckles with the local judiciary. I love a good fight. 8088. alistairconnor - 3/15/2006 12:27:35 PM Les Miz : saw it in NZ with a mostly Australian cast... yeah great story, but no memorable songs. Of the modern French musicals, Notre Dame de Paris is better (my choir has one of the songs in our repertoire : Ave Maria paiën) 8089. uzmakk - 3/15/2006 3:43:52 PM Conner,
I really do appreciate your post. I do have questions. All I have time to say right now is that I am reading William Hazlitt on The Pleasure of Hating and loving it. 8090. Ms. No - 3/15/2006 7:29:18 PM Anomie,
3-Penny isn't remotely operatic but it is definitely a musical play. Kurt Weill did the score for this one so it's full of marches and beer-hall songs and really insistent, aggressive rhythms. Then you'll get a song that sounds a bit langorous and maybe even sweet until you notice what the lyrics are about and then you get dumped into a kind of hissing, spitting, spoken part.
Brecht's musicals aren't meant to be pretty or "musical" in the sense of Gilbert & Sullivan or Rogers & Hammerstein. Brecht used songs as a tool to remind the audience that what they were watching wasn't real. That they were watching a play, a representation. He'd have characters directly address the audience, mingle among them, hold up placards that said things like "Don't look so sentimental", turn their backs on the audience.
So, if done in the manner Brecht intended, none of his musicals should really resemble what most people think of as a "musical". They certainly don't look anything like Andrew Lloyd Webber's works. Brecht's influence has been so great, though, that you've probably seen more of him than you know. Everyone has been influenced by him at this point to some degree.
Woody Allen has a film called Shadows & Fog which has a lot of ties to 3-Penny as well as Kafka and other giants of German Expressionism. Much of the film's score is taken either directly from Weill's Army Song or based closely on it.
8091. PelleNilsson - 3/15/2006 8:00:34 PM You are displaying a great deal of insight here, Ms No. 8092. Ms. No - 3/15/2006 8:51:09 PM I'm passionate about this play in particular because of my experiences with it. I'm sure I get a rather manic glint in my eye when I talk about it. ;-> 8093. anomie - 3/15/2006 10:23:13 PM Ms. No, I will seek it out and watch it, no doubt thinking of you the whole time.
On the subject of unconventional musicals, I am fascinated with a French movie called Eight Women. A murder in an isolated house is the setting for eight women, (all stars in their own right), of various relations sing songs, do silly dances, and act out petty squables. 8094. Ms. No - 3/15/2006 10:44:48 PM Ano,
I don't know that there is a film of it worth watching. I know that the Steve Martin - Bernadette Peters Pennies From Heaven is also based somewhat on 3-Penny, but I liked Shadows and Fog much better --- and it has the advantage of not being a musical. ;-> 8095. Ms. No - 3/15/2006 10:47:36 PM I'd never heard of 8 Women but I just looked it up on Netflix and saw who's in it and now I'm definitely going to have to check it out. Thanks for mentioning it! 8096. anomie - 3/15/2006 10:50:49 PM I think you'll see why I used the word "fascinated". It's one of the oddest movies I've ever seen. 8097. uzmakk - 3/16/2006 1:20:46 PM Ms. No,
Your introduction of 3 Penny Opera was apt and an education. My highschool drama club staged 3 Penny. They were an ambitious bunch. All I recall at this point is that I was impressed. 8098. uzmakk - 3/17/2006 5:42:13 PM Conner,
You asked if my apparent "not wishing to understand" as due to fear or a lack of confidence, that if I began to understand/empathize I might feel the foundations and illusions of my own goodie-two-shoes being/morality begin to crumble and wash away and this would scare me. The honest answer is no. Though I do have it in me to strangle a man to death, and though I do understand a good deal of the "causes of crime", I don't get any sensation of sliding toward hell with either dread, joy, or resignation. It is the sliding that is supposed to scare me, is it not?
Aren't you being a bit cowardly by turning the important dirtywork of society over to a professional, because you are fearful that you may be suffering from a bit of socioreligio remnantitus?
But, speaking of fear and lack of confidence 8099. uzmakk - 3/17/2006 5:43:53 PM Heavens, I have to get used to the Mote again. Sent that baby out without a second look. 8100. Ms. No - 3/17/2006 6:59:38 PM I'm still trying to figure out where you get judges and laws that don't come out of the social values of a democratic nation --- assuming one's nation is nominally democratic. 8101. alistairConnor - 3/17/2006 7:14:14 PM Hell, No, I don't believe I said any such a thing. I merely said that the business of prosecuting and judging offenders should be held at arm's length from the gut reactions of ordinary decent citizens.
And no, the process of forming laws is roughly similar in the US, France, and New Zealand. That's not the question I was discussing.
Both laws and justice must, obviously, come out of the social values of a democratic nation. But both need a lot of scrutiny, and need to be constantly measured against values which must necessarily underpin a nation which is "democratic" in the full sense : in particular, standards of individual human rights.
Otherwise, in a narrowly-defined democracy, 51% could vote a law to cut the balls off the other 49%. 8102. alistairConnor - 3/17/2006 7:28:24 PM Uz, my remarks in Message # 8068 were provocatively ad hominem, perhaps because if I addressed your views in political language it would have been even nastier.
But perhaps I misunderstood. We probably agree that justice should be administered in an unsentimental manner. To me, this cuts two ways :
- it means that justice should not go soft out of pity for people who didn't get a good start in life;
- it also means that it should not seek to punish out of anger and revenge.
Justice ought to seek the best outcome, and needs not only to be just (and seen to be just) but to be effective. This might mean that some idiot who burns down a church or ruins a football field gets some sort of non-custodial sentence, for example, because sending him to jail would turn him into a full-time criminal, at a far greater overall cost to society than if he's forced to spend his time helping out old folks or kids for a couple of years.
A justice system which is closely coupled with public opinion is not likely to have the latitude to develop effective strategies. We don't vote on the structural design of bridges; we don't elect the engineers either.
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