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9252. wonkers2 - 11/30/2008 6:53:18 AM That's a good question. Their civilization is not very civilized. The Muslims aren't the only religion that teaches that women must be subservient, however. 9253. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 11/30/2008 7:06:09 AM It drives me nutz to see this kind of abuse. 9254. wonkers2 - 11/30/2008 7:15:49 AM I agree. However, women in the U.S. only got the right to vote in 1920 when the 19th amendment was passed. Pakistan is not a very civilized country. Apparently terrorist groups there were behind the attacks in Mumbai. Catch 22 should be translated into Urdu and made required reading in the schools there and passed out free on every street corner with the objective of replacing Mohammad with Yossarian as a societal role model. And they could show The Big Lebowski free in every movie theater for a few months to encourage the fanatics to be a bit more laid back. 9255. jexster - 11/30/2008 9:00:46 PM Indians worship snake gods...killed 2000 Muzzies in a pogrom...killed a hundred Christians, chased 30,000 into refugee camps 9256. jexster - 11/30/2008 9:01:17 PM The entire country looks like a dump 9257. jexster - 11/30/2008 10:26:38 PM And I thought India was fuckt up
GENEVA, Switzerland (AP) --
Swiss voters overwhelmingly approved Sunday a move to make permanent the country's pioneering program to give addicts government-authorized heroin.
At the same time, voters rejected a proposal to decriminalize marijuana.
Sixty-eight percent of the 2,264,968 voters casting ballots approved making the heroin program permanent. It has been credited with reducing crime and improving the health and daily lives of addicts since it began in 1994.
Some 63.2 percent of voters voted against the marijuana initiative. 9258. jexster - 12/1/2008 9:09:25 PM Every dark cloud has a silver lining. Mumbai Massacre was tragic but at least CNN called in its Chief Asia Crisis Correspondent!!!
Just did a bit from Victoria Station (not the nice one, the India one) 9259. jexster - 12/1/2008 10:07:48 PM Indian Muslims Refuse Terrorists Burial in Muslim Cemeteries 9260. wonkers2 - 12/2/2008 12:47:11 AM Interesting. Juan Cole is a good source.
Does anybody else think the Indian commandos should have been a bit more patient in dealing with the terrorists at the Jewish Center. A bit more waiting and negotiating might have resulted in saving the lives of the the Rabbi and his wife. Moreover, would it not have been better to capture the terrorists alive rather than killing them. Shades of Waco, Texas. 9261. TheWizardOfWhimsy - 12/2/2008 1:07:40 AM Haste makes waste. 9262. jexster - 12/2/2008 1:21:19 AM No it wouldn't have done any good. The Black Cat Commandos knew the terrorists were Mossad 9263. JJBiener - 12/2/2008 2:00:28 AM Wonk - "A bit more waiting and negotiating might have resulted in saving the lives of the the Rabbi and his wife."
I am trying to figure out what you are basing this on. It would seem you are relying more on hope than on experience. I am having trouble remembering the last time there was a successful negotiation with terrorists. Can you help me out on that one? 9264. wonkers2 - 12/2/2008 3:02:19 AM Plenty of hostages have been rescued alive or ransomed from the FARC in Colombia. I doubt that ransom would have moved the terrorists in the Jewish center in Mumbai. Before coming in with guns blazing I would have cut off the water, and electricity and waited for a couple of days before shooting the place up. This might not have worked but waiting doesn't cost anything. Catching a couple of more terrorists alive would have been useful, not to mention the saving the lives of the Rabbi and his wife. It would have been worth a try.
Do you remember the disaster at Waco where the BATF and Janet Reno got impatient and needlessly burned up a bunch of women and children. And for that they were roundly criticized, justifiably so.
Waco Shootout 9266. JJBiener - 12/2/2008 3:40:39 AM Wonk - I am sure there have been successful negotiations with the Basque separatists as well, but it was clear early on the terrorists in Mumbai were on a different level.
I hope you aren't expecting me to defend Reno over Waco. She should have resigned over it. She was a lot of what was wrong with the Clinton Administration. 9267. wonkers2 - 12/2/2008 5:14:12 AM Perhaps you're correct. But a bit more patience wouldn't have cost anything other than the risk of critical public opinion. And it might have worked either to save the Rabbi and his wife or to capture the terrorists alive. The commandos apparently didn't wait until the finite amount of ammunition, food and water was exhausted. They could have done so. 9268. robertjayb - 12/2/2008 6:47:40 AM I want someone to prepare and publish an illustrated tick-tock that will explain how twelve (or is it ten?) men were able to wreak such havoc. Step-by-step, minute-by-minute? How did they do it? Was there any timely resistance at all? 9269. JJBiener - 12/2/2008 7:14:21 AM RJB - My understanding is that it wasn't just 10-12 men. That is how many came in from Pakistan for the attack. I don't think they know how many were already on the ground in Mumbai. This was a well planned operation. They would have had plenty of time to get people in place. 9270. JJBiener - 12/2/2008 7:18:49 AM Wonk - "But a bit more patience wouldn't have cost anything other than the risk of critical public opinion."
I don't think we know this. The whole thing was happening very quickly. I don't think the police could have known when the terrorists were going to start executing hostages. This wasn't exactly the kind of hostage situation we are used to in the US. 9271. jexster - 12/2/2008 10:33:17 AM Where's Marc-Albert?
Seems that asshole Harper's screwed himself. Oppo Bloc Sets Terms for Government
Nice! Vive le Québec libre ! 9272. alistairconnor - 12/2/2008 4:32:59 PM Objectively, the Mumbai thing is looking like a strategic Al Qaeda operation.
I thought their goal was to provoke trouble between Hindus and Muslims in India, and incidentally to stir trouble between India and Pakistan. But if you think through the probable effects, another picture emerges.
The Indian government has no choice but to blame Pakistan, and make hostile moves in that direction. If not, the government will most likely fall, AND there will probably be major Muslim/Hindu strife with many deaths. Going to the brink of war is their best hope of keeping the lid on the domestic situation.
This puts the government of Pakistan in a tough spot : yes, their military intelligence should have prevented the massacre, but the government have little control over the military, and none at all over military intelligence... who may or may not have been complicit or turned a blind eye. So they can give no guarantees that it won't happen again. If they try to assert control over the military, they may well provoke an islamo-military coup.
What they will have to do is shift troops to the Indian frontier if India picks a fight. And where will they shift them from?
... from the northwest, where they have been putting pressure on Al Qaeda and co-operating in the fight against the Taliban.
How to avoid this outcome, which is clearly positive for AQ?
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