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9567. vonKreedon - 7/4/2013 8:26:30 PM Yeah, I'm with Wombat and Judith wrt Snowden. He should have stayed in the US and certainly shouldn't have placed himself and his intel in the hands of the Chinese and Russians. 9568. judithathome - 7/4/2013 9:46:11 PM Personally, I think this guy has visions of grandeur about himself. And they are sorely misplaced.
He could have gone a much more sane route in exposing what he considers to be criminal behavior in the government.
He also should have had a plan in mind for what would be coming down on his head after he blew the whistle. For him to whine about being a man without a country and blaming the President for it is ludicrous...he chose this path...the fact it's full of ruts and leading nowhere is on him, no one else.
His father allegedly made some remark about his son exposing "the road to tyranny" taking place in this country...funny that he and his son never complained about the tyrannical actions of the former administration. (That we know of, anyhow.) 9569. vonKreedon - 7/4/2013 11:17:13 PM Yeah, I'm with Wombat and Judith wrt Snowden. He should have stayed in the US and certainly shouldn't have placed himself and his intel in the hands of the Chinese and Russians. 9570. Trillium - 7/5/2013 6:11:58 AM Who knows what was the final straw for Snowden? what did he witness, that fixed his intentions to speak out (and he may not be through with leaking).
There is someone else (General Cartwright) targeted for revealing information about a virus (stuxnet) that wrecks centrifuges, and which has escaped out onto the Internet. Snowden commented that computer hacking can wreck not only military equipment, but also hospital equipment and other critical devices.
Earlier a poster commented about our reliance on computers, and what happens when they malfunction? In a world bristling with high tech weaponry and support systems, goofs and/or malfunctions could have unimaginable consequences that we aren't prepared for.
I think we are too complacent and trusting in "authority". "Authorities" are just other fallible people, wielding enormous power. Accidents will happen, and meanwhile the public (and private?) discussions are pitiful, consisting mostly of partisan bickering, distortions, lying, and coverups. 9571. judithathome - 7/5/2013 6:30:23 AM Well, you might have a point...but who granted those in "authority" the ability to do these things? They were voted in, some of them, and we all bear the brunt of THAT.
9572. Trillium - 7/5/2013 5:46:26 PM Judith, we do vote for some of our leaders. On the other hand, there is a large component of un-voted leadership that goes mostly unexamined.
When I lived in New York City as a young woman, at some point I became aware that organized crime has a huge influence in the unofficial governance of the city. It wasn't just Italian mafia; there were other factions which also ruled by force, under the radar. Many of them were ethnic organizations (Russian, Asian, Colombian etc.) Ever so often the news would mention these groups, usually in a non-specific way.
After coming across a number of incidents involving the power of these groups (in housing, in recycling/garbage collection, etc.) I began to understand how "real" power, led by organized strongmen willing to use violence, forces decisions beyond the publicized façade of government.
Educated people and college professors used to crack jokes about "good ole boy" networks in the South. There's a lot more that goes on, well beyond the South, without commentary. 9573. judithathome - 7/5/2013 5:51:23 PM Of course there is...I just wish more people would admit it happens from both sides of the political spectrum. 9574. Trillium - 7/5/2013 5:53:45 PM These criminal factions are strengthened by unwillingness to recognize parts of life that are obvious, but mostly not-spoken-about. Wherever some part of life is illegal (alcohol during Prohibition; the drug trade now; homosexual bars and nightlife; prostitution; abortion where it is illegal, etc.), organized crime will move in to make the profits, and usually ends up overwhelming local governments through the influence of their money. Those factions rule, every bit as much as elected politicians do, and possibly have greater influence because it goes unrecognized.
A few years ago, I attended a college convocation that focused on murders of young women in Mexican border towns. Apparently many of the murdered girls had been subjected to organ harvesting. The speaker, a woman, spoke at length about corporations that operated maquiladoras in those towns, but never spoke a word about organized crime (which was my first thought in response to the situation). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_homicides_in_Ciudad_Ju%C3%A1rez 9575. Trillium - 7/5/2013 6:04:03 PM Judith, it does come from all sides of the political spectrum, and that's a big part of the problem -- people focus on political parties instead of the criminal activities.
A year ago, I did some research on Myles Horton, a favorite hero of mine who was a labor organizer in the coal mines. Horton has been largely forgotten. Few young people know about his influence, especially within the Civil Rights struggles that came to a head in the 1960s. (Horton had worked on this problem for decades earlier, as part of his union organizing efforts).
While looking for a Horton book in the library, another book fell off the shelf -- this one on Jimmy Hoffa (by Dan Moldea) I began browsing the Hoffa book.
Hoffa had never held much interest for me, but this book was astonishing. I definitely missed a lot of the 1970s (I was a young woman, working just to get by then, not focused on politics).
Both political parties were involved in pandering to criminals who ran the Teamsters union and other organizations. Moldea had worked as a truck driver to earn money for college, before becoming a journalist. Moldea's book describes how Hoffa et al. robbed union members of their pension plans, blew up recalcitrant businesses who had original refused to make deals with them, kicked rebels within the union movement and/or assassinated them.
These criminals worked with both parties, and Moldea's book documents how. It's worth a read, for anyone who is not independent in their thinking about American political parties. 9576. judithathome - 7/5/2013 6:51:31 PM Not to make light of what you've said at all but anyone who has watched movies or TV dramas knows about organized crime. 9577. arkymalarky - 7/5/2013 9:20:46 PM Trillium is rightly emphasizing the connection between organized crime and legitimate government activity as a long time issue which has been alternatively ignored and romanticized,. But the ability of money to influence outcomes over the voters is made worse by advancing technology, privatization, increasing dependence on corporate contracts, and corporate influence. 9578. Trillium - 7/5/2013 9:31:27 PM Yes, but how many people consciously acknowledge the influence of organized crime on our politics and pet causes? Criminality and greed take many forms. It is not possible to legislate away or stamp out greed, but we could be more honest about the corruption of our systems.
If we are going to delegate our eavesdropping services to Booz Hamilton et al., we need to develop more honesty about our leadership and the areas where they are vulnerable to blackmail. 9579. arkymalarky - 7/5/2013 9:44:42 PM Trillium is rightly emphasizing the connection between organized crime and legitimate government activity as a long time issue which has been alternatively ignored and romanticized,. But the ability of money to influence outcomes over the voters is made worse by advancing technology, privatization, increasing dependence on corporate contracts, and corporate influence. 9580. arkymalarky - 7/5/2013 9:45:39 PM sorry got a phone call and it refreshed 9581. Trillium - 7/7/2013 1:39:22 PM Sorry here too, I wondered why my screen kept freezing! But I will post, over all obstacles...
Aside from Snowden, I am still puzzled about what happened to the Roling stone reporter Michael Hastings, whose car mysteriously sped up at 4 in the morning in Los Angeles, then plowed into a tree and exploded, burning the occupant beyond recognition....but the occupant was identified by fingerprints as Michael Hastings? Weird, weird. 9582. judithathome - 7/7/2013 8:35:32 PM I thought he was a passenger in the car.... 9583. bhelpuri - 7/9/2013 4:14:26 PM Trillium - I have enjoyed reading your posts.
Wombat,
Hope you read (of course you have!) the Ellsberg editorial which only states the obvious (contra your opinions) regarding Snowden's choice to release on the road:
"Nothing worthwhile would be served, in my opinion, by Snowden voluntarily surrendering to U.S. authorities given the current state of the law"
Ellsberg - the Pentagon Papers leaker, in the WP. 9584. Trillium - 7/9/2013 8:45:06 PM Thanks bhelpuri. :)
Judith, where did you read that Hastings was a passenger in the car? Everything I have read, claims that Hastings was the driver, and alone. 9585. judithathome - 7/9/2013 9:31:17 PM I heard it on the news...early on the day after he died.
I'm not claiming anything...it was just a first report and after that, I don't recall hearing anything more about HOW he died, or even where...just that he was a great reporter and how tragic it was he was gone.
But if you were suggesting there might have been some sort of sabotage or something involved, I don't think I'd agree with you. I think it was a tragic accident...something that happens daily to many people.
9586. alistairconnor - 7/23/2013 5:33:34 PM Interesting times. I like Snowden, imperfect as he is. I think the extreme heavy-handedness of the US in ensuring he doesn't get asylum is very telling; also, the way western European nations fell over themselves to deny airspace to Correa's plane. Abject. The idea that he should just go home should be measured against the very palpable fact that the US government wants very, very badly to get their hands on him.
The fact that there's nothing surprising in his relevations does not lessen the importance of the issues raised. The fact that there is secret surveillance and signals work done, always has been, always will be, does not weaken the argument that it should be done in a transparent and accountable way. Outside of that, there is no democracy.
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