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9588. judithathome - 7/23/2013 5:48:57 PM The idea that he should just go home should be measured against the very palpable fact that the US government wants very, very badly to get their hands on him.
Why shouldn't they? He took things that didn't belong to him...he's a thief. He broke the law. If he'd really just wanted to expose the government, he could have talked with Greenwald, exposed the truth, and taken his lumps when the feds came to call.
He's a coward. I hope Putin gives him a two room walk-up with no heat and rusty water pipes. 9589. arkymalarky - 7/23/2013 11:48:57 PM I get you wrt the network Alistair. They really know all. That's okay and very convenient--until it isn't. 9590. alistairconnor - 7/24/2013 8:47:25 AM Well OK, he's a traitor, with respect to the "my country right or wrong" meme -- on condition that you identify the self-unregulated, self-ungoverned "no such agency" people with "your country" (which Obama is clearly doing).
Or he's a patriot, if he considers that the existence of such an unaccountable power nexus, willing and able to do harm to any person or entity on the planet, including governments, including its own, is unconscionable.
As for stealing things (information actually) that didn't belong to him -- well the obvious answer to that is "they started it". The NSA has stolen information that belongs to me and you, for example. If that's OK for you then... good for you. My mileage may vary. 9591. judithathome - 7/24/2013 2:52:17 PM I suppose the government might have "stolen" a few things from people aimed at doing harm to my country along the way...most people would be happy with them doing THAT, doncha think?
If in the process, some goon in a dark office runs across my recipes for twice-baked potatoes while they're at it, I'm not too concerned. 9592. vonKreedon - 7/24/2013 4:14:59 PM I'd respect Snowden if he'd stayed in the US and pushed the issue. Instead he fled to the PRC and then Russia and so distracts and diverts the issues to his actions rather than the government's. 9593. arkymalarky - 7/24/2013 4:21:47 PM I don't like the threats, & I don't like the fact that he divulged some international information that seemed to me to have no point except to put us in an awkward spot. 9594. judithathome - 7/25/2013 6:31:38 AM No Kinky Boots For Vladimir Putin
Russia’s president, Vladimir V. Putin, has declared war on homosexuals,” actor and playwright Harvey Fierstein wrote in a scathing op-ed for The New York Times Sunday. ”So far, the world has mostly been silent.”
Fierstein, a longtime advocate for LGBT issues, is trying to draw attention to Russia’s restrictive new policies toward homosexuals. Among these policies is a law signed by Putin on July 3rd which bans the adoption of Russian-born children by homosexuals. The law also restricts foreign families from adopting Russian children if they live in a country where marriage equality exists at all.
On June 30th, Putin signed a law that allows Russian authorities to detain tourists or foreign nationals who are gay or pro-gay for up to 14 days. This law is particularly significant for the effect it could have on the 2014 Winter Olympics in Sochi. Could gay or pro-gay athletes and spectators be subject to arrest if they attend the Olympic ceremonies? 9595. alistairconnor - 7/26/2013 1:55:46 PM Well, you people seem a great deal more complacent about surveillance than your Congress, which seems to have taken Snowden's revelations as a wake-up call and is now busy re-setting the cursor between security and privacy. 9596. vonKreedon - 7/26/2013 5:47:28 PM I'm not complacent, I'm supportive of people like Snowden and Manning releasing information that sheds light on surveillance and other activities that the government would like us to remain ignorant of. However, I'm not supportive of these people fleeing and seeking sanctuary with those who do not wish us well. I'm not supportive of those people fleeing and so moving the conversation from being about government actions to being about their actions. 9597. alistairconnor - 7/29/2013 10:56:47 AM Well, face the contradictions : you say you are supportive of what he did, but it was undoubtedly illegal and would get him twenty or so in the slammer; so apparently you want him to serve time.
Personally I don't care if he chooses to be a hero or not. The whistleblowing is the important thing. Likewise, Manning didn't choose to get caught. Common to both is a certain naivety : Manning was always going to get caught; Snowden made a weird choice of destinations, when he had better options available. 9598. judithathome - 7/29/2013 6:01:18 PM It's really funny to me that you support someone hacking in to private information when it's the government being hacked but when the government hacks into YOUR information, you're incensed that they would dare to do that. 9599. alistairconnor - 7/31/2013 12:33:32 PM Missing the point much, Judith?
The NSA runs the biggest hacking operation the world has ever seen. This is done without much in the way of public knowledge, nor oversight.
Snowden didn't hack anything, he disclosed privileged information, to which he had access professionally, for what he sees as the greater good. I've worked in IT all my adult life, and had access to all sorts of privileged information -- clients' data, most of it not very interesting. I have never sought to exploit that access for private gain -- that would be a serious breach of professional ethics. If ever I came across evidence of serious wrongdoing in a customer's data, I would have to ask my conscience what to do. I would be prepared to blow the whistle if I thought it important enough -- a question of public good. That would require me to get a new career, of course.
When the US government hacks me I am incensed but powerless (more accurately, fatalist). When someone draws attention to what the US government is doing, I applaud that, because there are legitimate concerns about it. 9600. alistairconnor - 7/31/2013 4:39:16 PM Glenn Greenwald:
A top secret National Security Agency program allows analysts to search with no prior authorization through vast databases containing emails, online chats and the browsing histories of millions of individuals, according to documents provided by whistleblower Edward Snowden.
The NSA boasts in training materials that the program, called XKeyscore, is its "widest-reaching" system for developing intelligence from the internet.
But remember, this isn't dangerous, because they're the guys wearing the white hats.
On the other hand, the fact that you and I now know about this definitely is dangerous. So please stick your fingers in your ears and repeat after me : lalalalalalala. 9601. judithathome - 7/31/2013 5:48:47 PM I have a difference of opinion with you; that doesn't make me clueless. 9602. vonKreedon - 7/31/2013 11:16:17 PM Nicely put Judith. 9603. alistairconnor - 8/1/2013 10:16:56 AM I'm just pointing out that I'm completely OK with you not worrying about this issue, Judith. I may add that, officially at least, the NSA will never stumble across your recipes for twice-baked potatoes. Unless you start exchanging recipes with foreigners, of course.
You consider that Snowden is a traitor for drawing our attention to it. I have no view on that issue, not being American, but I believe he has rendered a valuable service to everyone in the world. On that basis I would have been very happy, and proud, if France had offered him asylum.
I don't particularly have anything I need to hide from the NSA either. But I have no reason to trust the NSA, either. 9604. alistairconnor - 8/1/2013 10:22:26 AM Effort to get NSA leaker Edward Snowden’s father to Moscow collapses - The Washington Post The FBI tried to enlist the father of National Security Agency leaker Edward Snowden to fly to Moscow to try to persuade his son to return to the United States, but the effort collapsed when agents could not establish a way for the two to speak once he arrived, Snowden’s father said Tuesday. “I said, ‘I want to be able to speak with my son. . . . Can you set up communications?’ And it was, ‘Well, we’re not sure,’ ” Lon Snowden told The Washington Post. “I said, ‘Wait a minute, folks, I’m not going to sit on the tarmac to be an emotional tool for you.’ ”
In a wide-ranging interview, the elder Snowden offered a vehement defense of the young man some have labeled a traitor. He said that Edward, who is holed up at an airport in Moscow, grew up in a patriotic family in suburban Maryland, filled with federal agents and police officers, and that he “loves this nation.’’
9605. judithathome - 8/1/2013 5:39:36 PM You consider that Snowden is a traitor for drawing our attention to it.
I don't believe I've called him a "traitor"...I've called him a thief. Calling someone a traitor requires too high a standard...for one thing, I think you have to be at war and said "thief" has to be working with the enemy.
I'm all for whistle blowers...I supported what Daniel Ellsberg did, for example. But stealing files and running off to China? And then to Russia?
No, that's not a patriotic duty from someone who loves their country. It's the action of a thief. If you're "brave" enough and it means enough to you to do the crime, then stand up and face doing the time.
I certainly don't mind our attention being drawn to it...but it actually was nothing I didn't already expect...Homeland Security, anyone? What did people think...that HS only honed in on the "bad" guys? 9606. vonKreedon - 8/1/2013 6:00:05 PM Chiming in to agree with Judith's entire post. 9607. alistairconnor - 8/2/2013 1:15:04 PM Fair enough Judith, you didn't call him a traitor. You supported Ellsberg, but you consider Snowden a thief rather than a whistleblower, because he fled.
Ellsberg disagrees with you.
Ellsberg has a point on Snowden “Many people compare Edward Snowden to me unfavorably for leaving the country and seeking asylum, rather than facing trial as I did. I don’t agree,” Ellsberg writes. “The country I stayed in was a different America, a long time ago.” Ellsberg added, “I hope Snowden’s revelations will spark a movement to rescue our democracy, but he could not be part of that movement had he stayed here. There is zero chance that he would be allowed out on bail if he returned now and close to no chance that, had he not left the country, he would have been granted bail. Instead, he would be in a prison cell like Bradley Manning, incommunicado.”
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