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10554. arkymalarky - 12/23/2012 7:18:36 PM And I love my principal, but I don't want her packing either. Life involves risk. Times like these certainly make you realize which politicians lack all common sense and calm in a crisis. 10555. iiibbb - 12/23/2012 7:46:20 PM "sure won't hurt" isn't a good enough reason to pass a law IMHO. The idea of a law is to reach consensus. If a law merely makes regular people's lives more of a hassle while accomplishing nothing they're more likely to become single-issue voters... and you're less likely to be successful if you were to come up with a decent policy.
The government has enough problems with credibility gaps to go around creating them eyes open.
Personally I think the most effective thing is controlled entry. The school where we took my son before we moved had it... and the school we're taking him to now is putting it in over the holiday (was already in the works before the massacre). They also posted an armed police officer after the CT shooting and before the NRA came out with their announcement.
And as usual the press totally missed it.... suggesting police patrol schools isn't that crazy.... it's all the other shit he said that was nuts and taking too defiant a tone. People aren't going to react well to that. 10556. iiibbb - 12/23/2012 7:49:14 PM It is a mistake to press people/principals/teachers into performing a duty they may have no disposition for. There is more to having a gun than having it. If you lack the mindset to use it, it's just part of the problem. 10557. iiibbb - 12/23/2012 7:51:22 PM As side from controlled entry, there should be controlled corridors. So that sections of the schools can be cordoned off.
Of course, then you have to worry about evacuating a school if there were a fire... or a perp setting off a fire alarm in order to get people into the halls and then start shooting.
It really isn't that hard to think about all of the ways to contend with the tactics a school might employ. 10558. arkymalarky - 12/23/2012 7:56:02 PM I think it will help, but it doesn't threaten gun rights so people shouldn't squawk. Controlled entry is a nonstarter. They'd have to rebuild or revamp almost all schools and they simply don't need it. What about movie theaters? Parks? Malls? Lanza forced his way in. 10559. arkymalarky - 12/23/2012 8:01:31 PM It's not just about the mindset of the teachers but logistics. If you keep a gun secure it's useless in an emergency. 10560. iiibbb - 12/23/2012 8:04:52 PM Yeah.. I kind-of talked myself out of it. I basically think there's no canned thing you can do.
The only "assault weapon" I have is the one my brother gave me when he moved to Illinois. I had some others that were "assault weapons" under the previous law but it was a complete joke because they were assault weapons only by virtue of the cosmetic features they had. I have a glock semi-auto that I use/used for the competitions I used to use. Those competitions are the basis for my statement that controlling magazine size isn't going to help. Magazine changes are pretty fast and easy even for a neophyte. Cho didn't use large capacity magazines at VaTech... he just carried more with him.
From a self defense standpoint I'm not threatened by many gun laws because I am content with a shotgun, lever action, and a revolver for the home. 10561. arkymalarky - 12/23/2012 9:01:20 PM Us too. But we don't currently have a pistol. Stuff like that rabid skunk we had a while back requires we have some kind of firearm. The price of living where we live, which I wouldn't trade for anything. For security out here, dogs and lights are a huge help. 10562. arkymalarky - 12/23/2012 9:02:24 PM The wild hogs are gone for the moment, but shooting them would have been a real challenge. They're dangerous. 10563. arkymalarky - 12/23/2012 9:12:44 PM Anything can happen, but I hope that when we've come further on the other side of this that we remember our schools are safe, as are malls and theaters. Incidents are very rare, and there's much more risk driving to and from those places. It's like the way people reacted to flying after 9/11 or a major airplane crash. 10564. iiibbb - 12/23/2012 9:59:57 PM 9-11 type responses is just how we roll these days. 10565. Wombat - 12/23/2012 11:56:28 PM iiibbb:
I posted this on another web site as steps I would like to see taken. NRA types went slightly batshit. What do you think?
* Mandatory firearms training and licensing. Can be administered by states, but must meet Federal standards. License information availablle to Federal and State law enforcement.
* Required liability insurance for each firearm owned. Insurance providers can set rates depending on type and use of firearm
* Portability across state lines OK
* Each firearm must be registered in a permanent national database that all state and federal law enforcement can access.
* Waiting period before purchase sufficient to conduct thorough background check. No gun show exemption, private sales must register change in ownership.
* Limit to number of firearms purchased in a given time period.
* No firearm or ammunition purchases by mail order or over the Internet.
Steps the NRA could take to restore a modicum of legitimacy:
* Permit its rented legislators to approve the nomination of a BATF director (it's been six years...)
* Permit its rented legislators to fully fund Federal and State enforcement of existing legislation pertaining to firearms use, sales, transportation and regulation.
3) Insist that its rented legislators fund Public Health studies of gun violence, misuse and its victims.
4) Fund and encourage development of "smart gun" technologies. 10566. arkymalarky - 12/24/2012 3:32:25 AM One thing my principal has always harped on (rightly) is keep your classroom doors locked. Lanza walked past a locked room rather than wasting time forcing his way in. 10567. iiibbb - 12/24/2012 4:44:57 PM Wombat--
My litmus is whether the balance between effectiveness/intrusiveness. So hopefully my answers won't sound batshit crazy to you.
* Mandatory firearms training and licensing. Can be administered by states, but must meet Federal standards. License information available to Federal and State law enforcement.
I'm all for education. They require hunter safety courses. I think if you said you had to have a "safety" course that would be doable. I'm less for proficiency. Most proficiency goes out the window when under duress, and a good bit of the time when a gun is involved, there aren't a lot of bystanders. Also, I'm not sure it's fair to hold some disabled person up to an pat proficiency standard.
I've got no issues for standards for people who carry them; and virtually all states require even a cursory level for that.
Understand that training isn't everything. One of Huffpo's 100 since Newtown is a 3 yr old that got a hold of a State Troopers firearm at home and killed himself. 10568. iiibbb - 12/24/2012 4:46:09 PM * Required liability insurance for each firearm owned. Insurance providers can set rates depending on type and use of firearm
This isn't covered by liability insurance already? Would I have to maintain coverage on a gun that was stolen from me?
Not sure I understand the mechanism here.
* Portability across state lines OK
Are you advocating portability? Not sure.
* Each firearm must be registered in a permanent national database that all state and federal law enforcement can access.
I'm still not sure what this accomplishes. Explain to me how registration prevents Newton, Virginia Tech, or Columbine.
* Waiting period before purchase sufficient to conduct thorough background check. No gun show exemption, private sales must register change in ownership.
Maybe a more thorough check for a first-time purchaser, but after that I don't know the point.
* Limit to number of firearms purchased in a given time period.
I'm ambivalent. Most of these events are conducted by people who plan them over the course of months. They would just add this to their plan.
* No firearm or ammunition purchases by mail order or over the Internet.
I am ambivalent. However, the price gouging in some states is abhorrent. You might see unintended consequences of an uptick in accidents because people start reloading their own ammunition - not to specification or with brass that's too old because they're trying to save a few cents on the round--- or 50 cents on a round. 10569. iiibbb - 12/24/2012 4:46:26 PM Steps the NRA could take to restore a modicum of legitimacy:
* Permit its rented legislators to approve the nomination of a BATF director (it's been six years...)
* Permit its rented legislators to fully fund Federal and State enforcement of existing legislation pertaining to firearms use, sales, transportation and regulation.
3) Insist that its rented legislators fund Public Health studies of gun violence, misuse and its victims.
I'm not an NRA member so I don't care about their credibility. I think these are issues related to finance reform in general.
4) Fund and encourage development of "smart gun" technologies.
Here is my problem with "smart" guns. I really dislike the whole "smart gun" movement. I actually think it is dangerous.
(1) The technology is unproven. How do you know it's going to be reliable? I'll adopt the technology when the police adopt the same technology.
(2) Guns are mechanical. You assume there would be no workaround.
(3) Smart guns over-ride the most important gun safety rules by tricking people into thinking guns are "safe". People will develop bad habits. You should not give anyone a reason to ever think that a gun is "safe" or "smart". It's like auto-correct on "smart" phones. What if you insisted that anyone using the internet adopted auto-correct to prevent typos... and people actually thought that would solve their typing problems?
No... "smart" guns are a very bad idea.
Smarter gun safes are a better idea. A subsidy for gun safes even... if you register your firearms you get a gun safe to match it. 10570. thoughtful - 12/24/2012 5:07:24 PM If you are looking at preventing another situation like in Newtown, I'm not sure what these steps would've done. The shooter was well trained and practiced. The guns he used were semi-auto but not assault as CT has an assault weapons ban in place. The guns were purchased well in advance. If there was a smart chip in them, then presumably the mother would've allowed his "signature" to be approved too as they went shooting together.
The limit on clip size is much like Bloomberg's limit on soda size...you just buy 2 instead.
Controlled access was in place...the shooter shot his way through a glass panel in the door. And you don't want to so harden access to a building that the good guys can't get in....the shooter shot himself when he heard the police coming from outside and that's when the killing stopped.
The only thing I can see that's preventative is in regards to family and mental health services....there were clearly issues in this family that went unaddressed. The fact that mental health services seem to be available if you are 18 or under or 65 and over but with a huge gap in between, is one of the biggest gaps I see in policy and needs to be addressed. 10571. Wombat - 12/24/2012 10:59:57 PM iiibbb,
Thanks for the sane input.
The overall thrust of my suggestions is to make firearms and their owners more like cars and drivers.
So...if a gun is stolen and you report it to the police and the insurance company you wouldn't be responsible for it after it's stolen. Rates might go up, though.
Portability: since the licensing and registration databases are national, a gunowner could carry and use firearms in other states. They would have to be aware of any additional restrictions individual states may have.
Background checks: Each purchase. What if a prospective buyer had an encounter with the police since the last purchase?
Price gouging and people hurting themselves trying to refill cartridges doesn't concern me. The laws of economics can deal with the former, and people have the right to do stupid things to themselves.
I take your points on smart guns. However, I would like to see more research done on them. Who knows, perhaps some day the police will adopt them.
My suggestions do not directly address Newtown. However, they add some hoops to jump through, and would force sellers and owners to act responsibly or face consequences. For the majority of gun owners, none of these suggestions should be problematic (other than financially--freedom has a price, after all). To quote our conservative friends, "if you've done nothing wrong, you have nothing to worry about!" 10572. judithathome - 12/25/2012 12:24:05 AM I have some problems with a national databank of crazy people...do we really want to trust that the govenment/states will get this so called "list" right? The same government/state that can't run an election every four years correctly...with dead people still on voting lists and people purged from lists because their names sound "ethnic"...will be able to manage lists of people with mental difficulties?
We really want to trust that perfectly sane people won't end up on that list...with all the repercussions that entails?...and that actual nutjobs will slip through the cracks?
Seems weird to me...but not really...that a man who runs a club and whose millions are paid each year from "members of that club" doesn't want to blame the reason for i.e. guns that club at all but instead, wants to deflect blame onto those who are "less than" sane. 10573. arkymalarky - 12/25/2012 12:27:47 AM It all sounds reasonable as well as 3i's responses. Would that all discussions on the subject could be that productive. Efficiently reduce risk (no one argues changes would eliminate it) and increase responsibility--not "solve" the problem, any more than you solve drunk driving, careless wrecks, or murder with laws and regulations. The NRA's intransigence is only going to further marginalize them and the GOP with them. Even conservative Democrats and most moderate Republicans are getting off the bus here. That and the fiscal cliff are really taking a toll on conservatives.
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