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11143. iiibbb - 7/15/2013 3:47:13 PM The problem that example is that Florida law is explicit about warning shots. There is no room there.
It's like open carry in Florida which is explicitly not allowed... so if you "print" while concealed carrying you can potentially get into a bit of trouble.
The self-defense law, on the other hand, is entirely vague. All you need is a "reason to believe" that you are in danger...
It is completely out of whack because they are so strict up until you actually pull the trigger. 11144. iiibbb - 7/15/2013 3:47:27 PM ...and shoot someone. 11145. iiibbb - 7/15/2013 3:49:07 PM It's like gun controllers were having a lot of success on one end of the spectrum... and gun rights people were having a lot of success on the other... and it's created this body of law with weird magnetic fields. 11146. Trillium - 7/15/2013 10:39:15 PM Arky, just curious. What do they teach about "innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt" in your high school's civics class?
I just caught a snippet of Holder on the news talking about how he wants to go after people's thoughts and attitudes. This sounds like Inquisition territory.. What is Holder thinking? Does he want to be part of a Thought Police?
This shreds the constitution, blatantly.
11147. arkymalarky - 7/15/2013 11:04:27 PM that it applies differently to black people and white people. 11148. anomie - 7/15/2013 11:11:46 PM True Arky, but this is not the case. We have many better examples. This case just cheapens the whole argument. 11149. arkymalarky - 7/15/2013 11:22:58 PM Are you black? If not ask someone who is whether it cheapens the argument and get back with me on what they say. Even if your opinion is based on your perception of the evidence, which despite my vehement disagreement based on my differing perception that Zimmerman's actions precipated the events leading to someone's death (manslaughter), that in no way reduces the racial significance of the entire affair, starting with whether Zimmerman would have even followed Martin were he not black. 11150. arkymalarky - 7/15/2013 11:29:07 PM I have a friend who told me one time about her son getting stopped for DWB. its just surreal how that works. and it's a damn shame that with a black president and all the progress we say we made that black parents still have to instruct their sons on how to dress and how to behave to avoid incidents like Trayvon or DWBs or other acts of violence and maltreatment that are not on the radar of even liberal white people. 11151. anomie - 7/15/2013 11:30:54 PM Arky, so therefor what? We unilateraly waive Zimmerman's right to the presumption of innocence and vacate the reasonable doubt concept? No need for a jury, or a trial even. Why not just get a rope? This case is driving people crazy! 11152. anomie - 7/15/2013 11:35:03 PM The lead prosecuter just called Zimmerman a "murderer". It's madness. 11153. arkymalarky - 7/15/2013 11:36:05 PM nobody is saying that or ever argued that. Stop putting words in my mouth. Just because I think there was enough evidence Zimmerman should be convicted of manslaughter, based on evidence you repeatedly choose to ignore,doesn't mean you have to go back to kneejerkingly defending him. he skated. move on. 11154. anomie - 7/15/2013 11:47:49 PM I'm not defending him so much as process. I would like to see any action on th epart of any group that increases awareness of minority rights and treatment succeed. It's something we should all push for all the time in every aspect of life but especially in our public institutions. Nothing wrong with my white liberal radar, but as such I'm sure I'm not as sensitive to the problems as if I were black. We can all improve. But I don't have my head in the sand either. I don't think demonizing Zimmerman is the way to go in this case to achieve anybody's aims. It's not a hardcore bad-guy race case. It's more a a Barney Fife tragedy. 11155. judithathome - 7/16/2013 12:18:31 AM The only tragic thing about this is that a young boy is dead at the hands of someone who didn't even get a rap on the wrist and gets to keep his gun and carry it around to use whenever he feels threatened by someone wearing a hooded shirt. 11156. judithathome - 7/16/2013 12:23:46 AM "The lead prosecuter just called Zimmerman a "murderer". It's madness."
So it was just fine for the lead defense guy to claim that had Zimmerman been black, there would have been no trial? 11157. anomie - 7/16/2013 12:36:11 AM Judith, you give an excellent example of the many false equivalences that make it so difficult to have reasonable discussions about this case. This one...the OJ trial... You're making nonsense. 11158. judithathome - 7/16/2013 12:45:46 AM Well, I guess I'll just shut up then...because I wouldn't want to impose nonsense on such reasoned remarks as it's being madness that one side called the defendant a murderer...when that is what he did. What should it be? An accidental "life taker"? Is that more genteel?
How about "if Martin has just stayed home and had water instead of wanting a cold tea, poor George wouldn't have had to shoot him?" 11159. judithathome - 7/16/2013 4:56:19 AM Stand your ground changed everything in Florida and certainly had a bearing on this case. The law as written prior to SYG would have convicted Zimmerman but after the law was changed by SYG, it practically gave carte blanche to anyone who wants to carry a gun and shoot someone they have a problem with.
Before SYG altered the reading of the self-defense law, Zimmerman would have been guilty by warrant of the fact he left his truck and followed Martin. 11160. judithathome - 7/16/2013 5:00:48 AM This is 13 minutes long but it explains what I was awkwardly trying to say:
Lawrence O'Donnell Explains It All For You 11161. Trillium - 7/16/2013 12:18:35 PM Odonnell lost me when he said Trayvon was shot for no good reason. There is strong evidence that Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman, had already broken his nose and was repeatedly punching him in the head. That can be deadly, and a sports referee recently died after a face punching incident.
I am surprised at all the posters who claim that breaking someone's nose and punching them in the head is harmless.
You can't just walk up to strangers and punch them. That is assault, and potentially deadly assault. I work some weekends with a young woman who was brain damaged, blinded and apparently has recurring headaches after she was beaten on her head and thrown down.
Lawrence ODonnell is clueless. Same for others who are in denial about beatings and head injuries. 11162. Trillium - 7/16/2013 12:38:32 PM Additionally, in a public space you can follow or watch as you please. Decades ago I was walking with a friend in the West 70s of Manhattan, off Broadway, when we observed a very fit young man doing something very much like rock climbing on a brownstone ledge, to the side of the entrance steps.
The climbing man was trying an apartment's windows to get them open from his perch on a ledge. He began to curse us and said he was just trying to get into his apartment. My friend said that was fine, we were just watching. Eventually the climber got off the building front and left the area in the other direction, but he would have had no right to assault us for watching him. By the way, he wasn't "black" but that makes absolutely no difference. What he was doing looked like he was breaking in, whether it was his apartment or not. In an area plagued by breakins, it isn't unreasonable to wonder about the behavior of strangers. Whether you are afraid or not, punching strangers is totally inappropriate.
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